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and it hits me oh my gosh this is that

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triangle

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you know there's explanation for

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everything that occurred in the

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Rendlesham forest incident

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it doesn't involve aliens at all it was

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completely silent it comes right over

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our head it's so classic flying-saucer

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really standing in the clearing he

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turned over to my father and held his

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hand and he looked in his eyes and said

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we're not alone welcome to podcast UFO

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for our live show during the show feel

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free to participate live in our chat

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room and don't forget to like us on our

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very active Facebook page hello and

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welcome to the show I'm Martin Willis

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your host I'm really excited about

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tonight's show we have a professor of

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history Penn State professor Greg Agee

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Guillen hopefully I pronounced that

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close and he is has been doing some

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excellent work we're going to be talking

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about that basically on the history of

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UFOs and you know the whole phenomena in

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general and just a couple of things this

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is for people on YouTube this Saturday

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at 2:00 p.m. we have a David O'Leary

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from a project Bluebook is going to be

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on and after that David Marlar so the

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two David's they'll be on this Saturday

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at 2 p.m. and that's Eastern Standard

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Time it's not going to be a podcast

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until a Christmas Day so if you're

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listening live you'll get to be able to

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check that out this coming Saturday the

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15th and let's see what else next week

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Mack Maloney and I'll be in studio with

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Mack Maloney once again some people

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didn't really care that much work

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because it was kind of a four or five

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people and we're all kind of chatting

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and having I was having a lot of fun but

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I guarantee you we are going to talk

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about the UFO topic so that's next week

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we'll be in studio and Exeter New

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Hampshire with Mack Maloney and team and

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also he's going to give away I think he

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said seven his publisher is giving away

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seven books so we're gonna have Collins

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and people can win a free book that way

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just in time for Christmas and let's see

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I want to thank

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one that helps out with the show I

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really do appreciate that we absolutely

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could not do it without you the show is

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expensive and you helped by supporting

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the show for two dollars or more a month

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all that informations on podcast UFO

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comm and we are live on kgr a radio and

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you can also see it over on our website

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and it's also on our guests website

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tonight as well I saw that and on on

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YouTube and podcast UFO calm then on

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Thursdays we're over at the Dark Matter

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digital network Thursday nights I think

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it's up 7 p.m. Eastern Standard Time but

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I'm not really sure about that it's

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changed a little bit over there so

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anyway all good we are ready to roll and

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Alejandro welcome to the show hello

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hello thank you so much I'm excited for

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your show this is going to be a good one

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your guest and I got to say hi for a

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second there Greg but I didn't get to

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say more about how I really am excited

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that you're doing this interview it's

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great to to have you here yeah yeah I

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was telling him earlier that you and I

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actually his name came up during one of

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the news things that we were discussing

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and that's kind of where this led so

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it's it's really really gonna be

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fascinating to hear his side and you you

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two actually met when I got snowed out

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of Phoenix he he made it out there from

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Pennsylvania and YouTube met briefly at

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one of your I think was 2016 or

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something like that I know it's a missed

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opportunity on my part mostly because I

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get so swamped and crazy and it's funny

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because you know I'll get to meet some

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really cool people and they'll introduce

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themselves and I'll make a mental note

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which it doesn't work very well because

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my mental notes

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don't don't last very long and they just

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kind of disappear into the ether by the

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time my head hits the pillow and I'm up

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and running the next day so the amount

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of information that I learn and forget

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at those conferences is is pretty large

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so so much this is one that slipped

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through my mental fingers yeah someone

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said to me one time a short pencil is

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better than a long memory and that is a

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great saying I love

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that saying yeah yeah so but I'm also

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guilty of the same you know you meet a

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lot of people and it's always fun out

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there in Phoenix getting to meet all

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those great people yeah and hanging out

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with them well we're good we're getting

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old buddy I know I know get all this way

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here I know by the day it's whiter so

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what's going on in the UFO world I have

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a few exciting UFO stories for you so

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I'll try to get through these as quickly

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as possible the first couple aren't as

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exciting people I think get kind of

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bored of us two bunking UFO sightings

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but that's not why I talked about these

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sightings the reasons why I talk about

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them is because they're in the news

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you'll probably see them and before

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you're you know you're at the

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watercooler talking to your buddies

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about it you hopefully will then get my

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information be able to say or even

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better you know one of your buddies in

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those you're into UFOs and they come

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walking up and they say hey I saw a UFO

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on the news and if you're like we'll

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actually you'll seem really smart so

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it's about education right yeah so I

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don't think we talked about this one

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before but in Texas and there's been a

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little bit of a do made about this

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picture so this lady went outside to

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take a picture of the sunset and

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actually she got a little bit of video

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too and you see what looks like a almost

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like a glowing saucer there but it

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actually given my experience and I

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actually did talk to Mark Dantonio I

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think we even mentioned this maybe last

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week no that was something else actually

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but it looks like a part of a contrail

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and or just a cloud of course a contrail

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left by an airplane essentially is

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creating a cloud and especially at

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sunset you know that's what makes sense

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it's so beautiful they light up the

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clouds because of the angle of the Sun

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and so the this piece of what appears to

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be either part of a contrail or just a

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cloud sitting there is getting light lit

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up very brightly so it looks fantastic

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and even in the short clip it doesn't

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move at all and which would also

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indicate it clouds

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contrails clouds or there's those are

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things to watch out for when you're

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looking at this sort of thing

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the next stories are yeah no no we can

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move on from that up it just reminds me

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a few weeks ago I was driving along and

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again it was like late in the afternoon

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and there was a there was patches of

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clouds and one look so tempting for me

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to take a picture I just wanted to see

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what it would look like but of course I

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was driving but I wanted to see if it

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would look like a UFO because it

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definitely looked like something like

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that up in the sky there was a bunch of

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little short clouds and with the Sun

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hitting him I was thinking the same

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thing

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and I saw that image you're talking

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about and yeah it does look like a disc

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at first but that's your probably name

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yeah that's probably what it is

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yeah and you know we see this a lot

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because a lot of times the reporters are

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the people taking the accounts are not

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necessarily pros at looking at all this

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stuff like like they don't look at it on

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a regular basis like we do so they're

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not able to identify it they think it

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looks pretty neat and they know that if

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they put it out there people are also

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going to get really excited about it and

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sure enough that's what's happened here

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that a lot of people have gotten excited

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about this lady who caught a UFO during

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the sunset but just so you're aware and

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of course it's always good for us to

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speak to these because these are the

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questions we get hey what about that

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thing in Texas what about this here or

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there

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more Tom DeLonge on news and this

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actually doesn't have to do with to the

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stars his organization that's

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investigating UFOs this has to do with

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his own personal research so some of you

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may know that Tom DeLonge has been doing

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his own research for a long time and

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he's developed you know kind of his

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ideas into a few different scripts and

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stories out there some of them are

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graphic novels and in particular he has

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a graphic novel which is essentially a

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name for a comic book

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another more sophisticated name for a

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comic book he's got one called strange

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times and he says it was even inspired

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by his website strange times which of

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course was done years ago and you may

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not know this but he would post open

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mind TV stories there often with her

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permission

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you know we loved working with him way

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back then when that's when we developed

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our relationship but he developed this

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graphic comic which is kind of about the

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skateboard kids who find all of this

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weird stuff about UFOs and everything

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and TBS has picked it up so it's going

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to be a television series well there was

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a rumor out there that it was going to

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be a cartoon kind of an adult cartoon

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but I think that might have been an

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assumption because this is based off a

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graphic novel other stories out there

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make it look like it it'll be

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live-action so actual actors and

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everything out there so I'm not quite

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sure if it's gonna be live-action or not

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but definitely a series is going to be

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made based off of Tom to belong strange

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times which is kind of his idea you know

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this piece that he used for his idea of

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what's going on with UFOs and everything

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so this ought to be interesting and

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obviously he's extremely excited about

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it so that's pretty interesting huh yeah

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that's really a turn of careers isn't it

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right I know but that's what he's wanted

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you know and the good thing about this

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is at least it's an outlet for him to

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get out his ideas because some of you

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may notice he has not really been it was

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very vocal especially early last year or

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yeah essentially early last year we're

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still in 2018 but then once this New

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York Times article came out and once he

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started this to the Stars Academy to do

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serious research he's really taken a

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back seat at least when it comes to

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vocalizing or sharing his opinions on

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this topic instead he's been kind of

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allowing his researchers and work we've

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heard more from Louise Elizondo than

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anybody really in the last year because

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they're doing very careful work so he's

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making sure he's not tainting the waters

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there so I'm sure he appreciates finally

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having this outlet for his ideas about

271
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the topic you know you don't you know

272
00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:54,500
there's a lot of people that kind of

273
00:10:58,540 --> 00:10:56,930
bash you know Tom DeLonge but one thing

274
00:11:01,210 --> 00:10:58,550
I got to tell you that you don't see him

275
00:11:04,810 --> 00:11:01,220
trying to grab any of the glory that the

276
00:11:06,670 --> 00:11:04,820
December 16th article you know had in

277
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:06,680
the New York Times really you know I

278
00:11:09,220 --> 00:11:08,210
mean there's those mentioning of course

279
00:11:12,580 --> 00:11:09,230
Lou

280
00:11:14,470 --> 00:11:12,590
elizondo's you know featured in that but

281
00:11:16,390 --> 00:11:14,480
there's not really a lot going on when

282
00:11:18,430 --> 00:11:16,400
it's in fact it was his efforts that

283
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:18,440
actually you know made these things come

284
00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:21,650
forward really exactly it was his

285
00:11:26,170 --> 00:11:24,620
efforts completely that's why i've you

286
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:26,180
know most of my articles have been from

287
00:11:30,610 --> 00:11:28,490
that angle is here's this organization

288
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:30,620
but you know it's this rock star who

289
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:32,810
made this all happen and it really was

290
00:11:37,510 --> 00:11:35,210
his efforts if he wouldn't have had this

291
00:11:40,450 --> 00:11:37,520
platform this to the stars academy then

292
00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:40,460
Elizondo for Elizondo to join and then

293
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:42,710
have this outlet to be able to share we

294
00:11:45,970 --> 00:11:45,530
might still not know about this secret

295
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:45,980
Pentagon

296
00:11:51,550 --> 00:11:50,000
you know UFO project that is ongoing and

297
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:51,560
I mean there aren't there's new

298
00:11:55,750 --> 00:11:53,600
information to be discovered about this

299
00:11:57,460 --> 00:11:55,760
project on a regular basis and I could

300
00:12:00,490 --> 00:11:57,470
share with you even recently I talked

301
00:12:01,990 --> 00:12:00,500
with George Knapp and he is you know

302
00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:02,000
still looking into this and he's

303
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:04,310
prepared to release more information to

304
00:12:10,450 --> 00:12:08,690
so this is the you know the the fruit

305
00:12:12,130 --> 00:12:10,460
that keeps on giving and we're gonna get

306
00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:12,140
more and more information as time goes

307
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:15,290
on so stay tuned because it's very

308
00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:18,410
exciting times with with all this and

309
00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:20,570
this is kind of exciting too because I

310
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:22,040
think this next story I'm going to get

311
00:12:26,770 --> 00:12:24,800
to you kind of has allowed to happen

312
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:26,780
because of these new revelations that

313
00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:29,210
Tom DeLonge helped inspire and that is

314
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:31,790
you probably seen in the news a lot

315
00:12:36,610 --> 00:12:33,650
about this NASA scientist who's saying

316
00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:36,620
we need to look into aliens this all

317
00:12:43,420 --> 00:12:40,940
started with a fox news story and

318
00:12:45,340 --> 00:12:43,430
actually he's come out to say well Fox

319
00:12:47,470 --> 00:12:45,350
News didn't get it right and they didn't

320
00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:47,480
actually interview him before they

321
00:12:51,850 --> 00:12:49,790
release a story but they did watch a

322
00:12:53,020 --> 00:12:51,860
lecture and a paper that he did for SETI

323
00:12:56,110 --> 00:12:53,030
the search for extraterrestrial

324
00:12:58,990 --> 00:12:56,120
intelligence Institute where he was

325
00:13:01,030 --> 00:12:59,000
arguing essentially that aliens could

326
00:13:05,140 --> 00:13:01,040
have visited here we don't know and that

327
00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:05,150
we need to take UFO stories seriously

328
00:13:11,170 --> 00:13:07,760
and do some serious research to figure

329
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:11,180
out if that's the case they he feels

330
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:14,090
that the the Fox story that came out

331
00:13:18,730 --> 00:13:16,130
kind of gave me the impression that he

332
00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:18,740
believes definitively that you know

333
00:13:23,079 --> 00:13:22,310
aliens have been here and and it's

334
00:13:25,210 --> 00:13:23,089
something we need

335
00:13:27,249 --> 00:13:25,220
to prove and that's why people need to

336
00:13:29,590 --> 00:13:27,259
pay attention she's correcting to say

337
00:13:32,799 --> 00:13:29,600
that no what I'm saying is it's entirely

338
00:13:34,449 --> 00:13:32,809
possible and because of that reason

339
00:13:36,850 --> 00:13:34,459
that's why we need to take this

340
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:36,860
information seriously because there

341
00:13:41,889 --> 00:13:38,930
could be discoveries made by information

342
00:13:43,780 --> 00:13:41,899
and evidence and and physical evidence

343
00:13:46,059 --> 00:13:43,790
that we have right here on the planet

344
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:46,069
which I think makes complete sense and

345
00:13:50,049 --> 00:13:47,600
it's one of the frustrating things that

346
00:13:52,179 --> 00:13:50,059
when it comes to setting of course you

347
00:13:55,239 --> 00:13:52,189
have a debated cha stack that lead

348
00:13:57,340 --> 00:13:55,249
scientists for study on your show but

349
00:14:00,790 --> 00:13:57,350
they you know cha stack does an

350
00:14:02,829 --> 00:14:00,800
excellent job and I do a lecture

351
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:02,839
astronomers and UFOs and it's funny I do

352
00:14:07,210 --> 00:14:04,730
I start with talking about how great

353
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:07,220
Shah stack is but him being a bonehead

354
00:14:11,860 --> 00:14:09,170
is what inspired me to do this lecture

355
00:14:13,689 --> 00:14:11,870
because of a couple of things

356
00:14:15,249 --> 00:14:13,699
he says if astronomers if you office

357
00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:15,259
were here astronomers would see them and

358
00:14:20,079 --> 00:14:16,790
it's kind of a silly thing because

359
00:14:23,379 --> 00:14:20,089
astronomers have seen UFOs so that's the

360
00:14:26,739 --> 00:14:23,389
nature of that lecture but he argues so

361
00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:26,749
strongly and so convincingly that the

362
00:14:30,429 --> 00:14:29,809
universe must be you know teeming with

363
00:14:32,530 --> 00:14:30,439
life

364
00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:32,540
yet they can't get here and that's the

365
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:36,110
frustrating part is that if there are if

366
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:38,720
the likelihood of extraterrestrial

367
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:40,490
civilizations intelligent ones is so

368
00:14:46,569 --> 00:14:43,370
high and the odds are so high that

369
00:14:49,389 --> 00:14:46,579
they're out there then it would lend -

370
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:49,399
it would seem intuitively obvious that

371
00:14:53,470 --> 00:14:51,410
the possibility that we've been visited

372
00:14:57,489 --> 00:14:53,480
in the past or even potentially being

373
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:57,499
visited now it is a possibility perhaps

374
00:15:02,049 --> 00:14:59,600
we don't have strong evidence to say

375
00:15:05,079 --> 00:15:02,059
that that is certainly happening but

376
00:15:09,069 --> 00:15:05,089
it's you know their argument lends to

377
00:15:11,259 --> 00:15:09,079
the and sets the the base a very strong

378
00:15:13,239 --> 00:15:11,269
one for the argument that it's a

379
00:15:15,579 --> 00:15:13,249
possibility and that's what this

380
00:15:17,889 --> 00:15:15,589
scientist is out there trying to say

381
00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:17,899
because it's possible we need to take

382
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:20,569
the the possibility seriously and we

383
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:22,910
need to investigate any potential

384
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:25,370
evidence showing that this has occurred

385
00:15:29,769 --> 00:15:28,160
or is occurring you know our the guest I

386
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:29,779
have I'm going to talk to him about SETI

387
00:15:35,019 --> 00:15:32,240
because I've heard him talk about that

388
00:15:37,150 --> 00:15:35,029
subject and one of the things he says is

389
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:37,160
you know they basically have as much

390
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,160
as we do to get their funding you know

391
00:15:45,790 --> 00:15:42,560
which i think which is a great point and

392
00:15:48,189 --> 00:15:45,800
over the years you know they have not

393
00:15:50,379 --> 00:15:48,199
had much in the way of fruits for their

394
00:15:52,210 --> 00:15:50,389
efforts I think that they would admit

395
00:15:55,629 --> 00:15:52,220
that that we don't have any evidence of

396
00:15:58,210 --> 00:15:55,639
whether all of these years same could be

397
00:15:59,920 --> 00:15:58,220
said of UFO research although some

398
00:16:01,869 --> 00:15:59,930
people have argued that in the UFO

399
00:16:04,179 --> 00:16:01,879
research arena there's been more that

400
00:16:06,309 --> 00:16:04,189
has been gained and I think if you look

401
00:16:08,980 --> 00:16:06,319
at the Pentagon program and the evidence

402
00:16:11,220 --> 00:16:08,990
that Louise Elizondo has put forth which

403
00:16:14,650 --> 00:16:11,230
is only a fraction of the information

404
00:16:16,869 --> 00:16:14,660
that they gathered because as he says he

405
00:16:18,999 --> 00:16:16,879
hasn't been given the liberty to share

406
00:16:20,590 --> 00:16:19,009
any more information you know there's

407
00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:20,600
definitely a strong case to be made that

408
00:16:25,210 --> 00:16:22,430
at least there are mysterious

409
00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:25,220
occurrences that have happened that

410
00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:27,910
could potentially kind of like the other

411
00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:30,769
scientists column Bono is his name by

412
00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:31,040
the way

413
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:33,889
proposed that there there's enough there

414
00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:39,110
to look at to begin to explore yeah

415
00:16:44,410 --> 00:16:40,430
absolutely and then you know there's

416
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:44,420
supposedly thousands of trace cases you

417
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:46,639
know where there was some type yeah iris

418
00:16:52,090 --> 00:16:49,610
evidence I don't personally out there

419
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:52,100
there's potential trace cases but the

420
00:16:58,509 --> 00:16:55,730
French this is kind of this on the

421
00:17:02,290 --> 00:16:58,519
French UFO organization that is under

422
00:17:04,689 --> 00:17:02,300
their space program that those are their

423
00:17:08,289 --> 00:17:04,699
most important cases is their handful of

424
00:17:10,569 --> 00:17:08,299
cases where they do feel that there have

425
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:10,579
been physical trace evidence and they do

426
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:12,559
have cases where they feel you know

427
00:17:17,529 --> 00:17:14,799
plants for example have been affected by

428
00:17:19,929 --> 00:17:17,539
electromagnetic effects that proved to

429
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:19,939
them that there has been at least some

430
00:17:25,329 --> 00:17:23,360
physical contact of some sort and when

431
00:17:27,939 --> 00:17:25,339
that sort of evidence piles up it's

432
00:17:30,970 --> 00:17:27,949
something to look at right alejandro

433
00:17:32,860 --> 00:17:30,980
thank you so much my pleasure thanks for

434
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:32,870
having me all right and I'll talk to you

435
00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:34,400
next week actually it won't harm all

436
00:17:38,740 --> 00:17:36,620
right later next week I'll be in studios

437
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:38,750
so sorry it's not gonna be next week's

438
00:17:45,639 --> 00:17:41,450
gonna be I know it's gonna be after

439
00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:45,649
Christmas all right all right on YouTube

440
00:17:49,149 --> 00:17:47,360
you can see the sad face all right

441
00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:49,159
Alejandro you take care I'll talk to you

442
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,220
soon all right you too have a great show

443
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:54,400
all right thank you so our guest tonight

444
00:17:59,670 --> 00:17:57,310
I'm real excited is Professor Greg Agee

445
00:18:01,200 --> 00:17:59,680
Guillen he's a professor of history at

446
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:01,210
Penn State University where he

447
00:18:05,310 --> 00:18:03,850
specializes in history of science and

448
00:18:07,950 --> 00:18:05,320
medicine he's written and taught

449
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:07,960
extensively about the topics as the

450
00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:10,390
history of disability the history of

451
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:12,670
crime and prisons and the history of

452
00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:15,790
madness and actually saw some of his his

453
00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:18,040
lectures online on that very interesting

454
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:20,620
most recently he's embarked on writing

455
00:18:25,170 --> 00:18:23,050
the history of UFO and alien contact

456
00:18:28,140 --> 00:18:25,180
phenomena with an eye toward

457
00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:28,150
understanding its rise in development

458
00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:30,310
worldwide he's received funding for his

459
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:32,520
research from the American Philosophical

460
00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:35,350
Society the American Historical

461
00:18:39,870 --> 00:18:37,150
Association NASA and the Smithsonian

462
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:39,880
Institute Wow welcome to the show

463
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:42,640
Greg great thanks I'm glad to be here

464
00:18:49,170 --> 00:18:46,330
yeah excellent so I have to I guess I'm

465
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:49,180
gonna have to ask right off the bat why

466
00:18:54,030 --> 00:18:52,390
UFOs how did you get how'd you fall a

467
00:18:56,550 --> 00:18:54,040
professor of history how does it fit

468
00:18:59,280 --> 00:18:56,560
into UFOs or how did they fall into you

469
00:19:01,710 --> 00:18:59,290
yeah they fell well you know there's a

470
00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:01,720
certain there's the there's the the sort

471
00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:04,300
of more long-range sort of answer in the

472
00:19:11,250 --> 00:19:07,900
short range answer the the the kind of

473
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:11,260
long range answer is that I like so many

474
00:19:16,170 --> 00:19:14,290
people particularly of my generation as

475
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:16,180
you can tell I've got my share of gray

476
00:19:24,630 --> 00:19:20,290
hair I grew up I grew up and was utterly

477
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:24,640
utterly fascinated with UFOs and aliens

478
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:30,610
and and the literature and so I as a kid

479
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:33,310
I couldn't get enough of this stuff and

480
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:35,770
so I would read everything I could read

481
00:19:41,370 --> 00:19:38,410
about I would watch any TV specials I

482
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:41,380
remember really vividly that series back

483
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:43,090
and I guess that was the 70s right in

484
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:46,960
search of 100 neat Maya right and I

485
00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:48,970
would read about this stuff was utterly

486
00:19:56,090 --> 00:19:52,870
fascinated with it but I also got really

487
00:19:59,010 --> 00:19:56,100
interested too and in reading like the

488
00:20:03,150 --> 00:19:59,020
debunkers to you know I was fascinated

489
00:20:04,770 --> 00:20:03,160
with hearing from Philip Glass I was

490
00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:04,780
loved Carl Sagan

491
00:20:10,110 --> 00:20:07,120
still remember vividly going to my

492
00:20:11,790 --> 00:20:10,120
father taking me to see Carl Sagan

493
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:11,800
lecture he was visiting I grew up in

494
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:14,170
upstate New York and he was visiting and

495
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:21,130
that was just utterly so I I was

496
00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:23,770
fascinated with it and it was for me it

497
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:26,020
was um you know I think about it in

498
00:20:32,070 --> 00:20:28,960
retrospect I I I tell people in in many

499
00:20:36,150 --> 00:20:32,080
many ways the the my interest in the

500
00:20:38,550 --> 00:20:36,160
study and the reading about UFOs and UFO

501
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:38,560
literature I think was the beginning of

502
00:20:45,260 --> 00:20:40,960
my becoming a professor of history I

503
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:45,270
mean I really it was my introduction to

504
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:48,060
thinking about big questions

505
00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:51,790
investigating things uncovering you know

506
00:20:56,910 --> 00:20:53,740
Lou lifting up rocks and uncovering

507
00:20:59,520 --> 00:20:56,920
stories trying to be critical but trying

508
00:21:01,410 --> 00:20:59,530
to be open all these kinds of things I

509
00:21:04,770 --> 00:21:01,420
in a sense I realized I kind of was

510
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:04,780
learning by by my experience doing that

511
00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:05,770
and so that's where I first became

512
00:21:10,230 --> 00:21:08,140
interested in it but I have to say then

513
00:21:12,540 --> 00:21:10,240
I kind of moved on to other things and

514
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:12,550
and as you can tell I started the study

515
00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:14,410
and research other kinds of community

516
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:15,670
fields but I've always been interested

517
00:21:20,550 --> 00:21:17,200
in the history of science and medicine

518
00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:20,560
and then what happened was a few years

519
00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:23,980
ago I was on a panel at a conference on

520
00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:25,390
a completely different subject with a

521
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:28,900
colleague of mine and she was working on

522
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:30,580
a book project that was going to evolve

523
00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:32,740
a bunch of people writing about the

524
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:36,070
occult and the occult particularly in

525
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:39,250
and after Nazi Germany in Germany and

526
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:42,310
and I was some fascinating stuff and I

527
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:44,080
said to her offhand I said you know I

528
00:21:50,970 --> 00:21:47,200
always wondered did did that whole UFO

529
00:21:53,580 --> 00:21:50,980
thing like ever take place in Germany

530
00:21:55,380 --> 00:21:53,590
you know was that ever a big thing there

531
00:21:56,970 --> 00:21:55,390
she's like I have no idea but if you

532
00:21:59,310 --> 00:21:56,980
ever wanted to write on it we would love

533
00:22:00,960 --> 00:21:59,320
to publish whatever you're writing I'm

534
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:00,970
like well I don't have time for that

535
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:04,720
well it kind of stuck in my craw I we

536
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:07,360
just had this thing and I kept an itch I

537
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:10,330
had to scratch and so I started doing

538
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:12,970
some you know research on my own with

539
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:15,120
with a database that I had at the

540
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:18,130
university library and started looking

541
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:18,460
in

542
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:25,990
40s and 50s and I found all this stuff

543
00:22:30,270 --> 00:22:28,450
and I was fascinated with it I ended up

544
00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:30,280
writing something up about it didn't

545
00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:31,990
actually ever get published in that book

546
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:34,150
because in the end it was not related

547
00:22:39,870 --> 00:22:36,970
enough but I I followed that and then

548
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:39,880
you know as I was I was ready to take on

549
00:22:45,330 --> 00:22:42,730
a new project a friend of mine said hey

550
00:22:46,980 --> 00:22:45,340
why don't you do this why don't you jump

551
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:46,990
into there because you you find this

552
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:49,450
stuff fascinating I'm like yeah I don't

553
00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:51,370
know there must be so much that's been

554
00:22:58,470 --> 00:22:54,190
written on it and that's when I kind of

555
00:23:01,160 --> 00:22:58,480
discovered that guess what academic

556
00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:01,170
historians you know people of my tribe

557
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:04,270
have shown almost no interest in the

558
00:23:11,370 --> 00:23:06,610
subject whatsoever I mean we have David

559
00:23:14,610 --> 00:23:11,380
David Jacobs book in what 1975 Michael

560
00:23:15,870 --> 00:23:14,620
swords is a is it is a PhD in history

561
00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:15,880
and he's written on stuff though I don't

562
00:23:19,710 --> 00:23:17,500
know these ever really Mike I don't

563
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:19,720
think it's ever written a whole book on

564
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:21,730
the history of the phone so that was it

565
00:23:27,330 --> 00:23:24,790
that and I thought that's really strange

566
00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:27,340
and so I thought yeah this sounds like

567
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:29,950
something that's worthy it's interesting

568
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:33,280
to me and it's a chance to go back and

569
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:35,410
look over things that really had a real

570
00:23:40,380 --> 00:23:38,320
big impact on me and during many

571
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:40,390
formative years in my life and now I can

572
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:42,250
go back and look over this stuff I've

573
00:23:47,070 --> 00:23:44,530
got this there's sort of the eye and the

574
00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:47,080
ears of historian to sort of be my guide

575
00:23:51,870 --> 00:23:49,300
as I go through all this why would you

576
00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:51,880
think that there is such a trepidation

577
00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:55,180
and actually someone with your

578
00:24:00,930 --> 00:23:58,210
background you know just shying away

579
00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:00,940
from from the topic is is it the old

580
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:03,790
ridicule factor yeah right

581
00:24:08,610 --> 00:24:06,730
I mean I think that that is there and

582
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:08,620
that has been there ok there's no

583
00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:13,530
question about it that that people

584
00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:15,790
historians are an interesting group of

585
00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:17,380
people we're an interesting group of

586
00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:19,540
people but there is a level in which

587
00:24:25,710 --> 00:24:23,920
they have sometimes played things pretty

588
00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:25,720
you know hold their cards close to the

589
00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:27,580
vest and don't sort of venture out into

590
00:24:32,430 --> 00:24:30,340
some topics and areas it can take some

591
00:24:35,550 --> 00:24:32,440
time for those things to take place

592
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:35,560
but that said that said the funny thing

593
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:40,540
to me is that you know we historians are

594
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:42,490
kind of unique in that going into this

595
00:24:49,380 --> 00:24:46,210
if you look since say the late 1960s

596
00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:49,390
that other kind of academic groups the

597
00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:52,230
UFO phenomenon has been studied by

598
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:56,190
everything from you know meteorologists

599
00:25:01,950 --> 00:24:58,810
anthropologists scholars of religious

600
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:01,960
studies folklorist psychologists as a

601
00:25:07,290 --> 00:25:04,690
whole bunch of people so we are kind of

602
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:07,300
odd in that we've kind of steered clear

603
00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:11,350
of this thing and it's a bit it's it

604
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:13,420
still is kind of a bit of a mystery to

605
00:25:19,050 --> 00:25:17,050
me because there's no trace of anybody

606
00:25:20,790 --> 00:25:19,060
ever sort of publicly coming out and

607
00:25:22,590 --> 00:25:20,800
saying hey nobody should study this

608
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:22,600
stuff first nobody should look into this

609
00:25:26,790 --> 00:25:24,610
though it's more of a kind of thing

610
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:26,800
that's gone around unstated and and and

611
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:29,290
that's why in a sense the question has

612
00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:32,200
to be why have you no historians of all

613
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:36,040
people been so so nervous about going

614
00:25:41,910 --> 00:25:39,490
into something when you know we've long

615
00:25:45,330 --> 00:25:41,920
since gone into all sorts of topics that

616
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:45,340
seem to be controversial or or maybe

617
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:47,650
make people nervous when they sort of

618
00:25:52,620 --> 00:25:49,600
discuss it so to me it's always been a

619
00:25:54,810 --> 00:25:52,630
little odd in that regard there are

620
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:54,820
people now who are doing it more and now

621
00:25:59,580 --> 00:25:56,770
it's a topic where actually there's a

622
00:26:02,130 --> 00:25:59,590
whole group of young people in PhD

623
00:26:05,730 --> 00:26:02,140
programs in both here the US and in

624
00:26:07,950 --> 00:26:05,740
Canada who are starting to take this up

625
00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:07,960
as a historical product but it's taken

626
00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:10,060
this long it's taking this ok well jump

627
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:11,260
back to that we're actually at break

628
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:14,200
time right now so alright everyone so

629
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:16,480
we're going to take a little break here

630
00:26:23,850 --> 00:26:20,020
and my guest tonight is Professor Greg

631
00:26:31,050 --> 00:26:23,860
get Gorion Igor gorian party sorry about

632
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:31,060
that and we'll be right back all right

633
00:26:36,270 --> 00:26:34,330
Martin we're clear and how much time we

634
00:26:37,410 --> 00:26:36,280
got just over 4 minutes in this break

635
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,420
all right sounds good

636
00:26:42,690 --> 00:26:39,760
all right yeah we'll pick that back up

637
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:42,700
after the break because I think that's

638
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:44,140
fascinating I do want to talk about that

639
00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:46,210
so

640
00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:49,240
have you during the break here I don't

641
00:26:53,340 --> 00:26:50,800
really see any questions up there right

642
00:26:55,890 --> 00:26:53,350
now but have you had ridicule from

643
00:27:00,120 --> 00:26:55,900
colleagues at all about about this

644
00:27:03,210 --> 00:27:00,130
interest you know I I cannot say I have

645
00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:03,220
ever gotten anything along those lines

646
00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:05,800
I've never gotten that I I there are

647
00:27:11,940 --> 00:27:08,620
there times I I feel like I get maybe a

648
00:27:16,110 --> 00:27:11,950
raised eyebrow from somebody more often

649
00:27:18,570 --> 00:27:16,120
than not the the most I've received I

650
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:18,580
think are I can think of some instances

651
00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:21,310
where I think I had some people who I

652
00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:23,230
think thought this always rather

653
00:27:27,030 --> 00:27:25,390
frivolous you know why aren't you

654
00:27:28,380 --> 00:27:27,040
studying the things that really matter

655
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:28,390
right you should be studying

656
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:31,770
you know kings and queens and Wars and

657
00:27:36,330 --> 00:27:35,050
politics and things like that and I

658
00:27:38,850 --> 00:27:36,340
always tell people I've done a lot of

659
00:27:41,070 --> 00:27:38,860
that and it's not to say that this stuff

660
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:41,080
doesn't actually you know have

661
00:27:45,060 --> 00:27:42,970
consequences and is meaningful and part

662
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:45,070
of what I argue with those people is

663
00:27:52,910 --> 00:27:48,610
that in fact no in fact the the story of

664
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:52,920
the the the Flying Saucer phenomenon and

665
00:27:58,740 --> 00:27:55,690
claims of alien contact and all of that

666
00:28:01,860 --> 00:27:58,750
that takes place after world war two has

667
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:01,870
been a very momentous event in human

668
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:04,330
history and it's having real impacts on

669
00:28:09,420 --> 00:28:06,130
all sorts of things ranging from

670
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:09,430
politics to the ways in which we think

671
00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:12,430
about scientific expertise so for me I

672
00:28:16,110 --> 00:28:14,950
would make the sort of counter-argument

673
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:16,120
to those people they don't know I think

674
00:28:20,910 --> 00:28:18,490
this stuff is is equally interesting and

675
00:28:23,460 --> 00:28:20,920
and important is that stuff but on the

676
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:23,470
whole the react reactions and responses

677
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:26,230
I have gotten from most of my colleagues

678
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:29,710
is excitement they all find it pretty

679
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:33,310
cool well and actually if if we could

680
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:36,130
figure out what those things are whose

681
00:28:40,860 --> 00:28:39,250
who's driving the craft so to speak I

682
00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:40,870
think that would be one of the biggest

683
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:43,900
answers you know very very very

684
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:47,170
important answer you know of course I

685
00:28:52,110 --> 00:28:50,640
don't expect to actually know about that

686
00:28:55,020 --> 00:28:52,120
anytime soon

687
00:28:57,390 --> 00:28:55,030
you know along those lines I heard

688
00:28:59,070 --> 00:28:57,400
someone from the 19 I think it was the

689
00:29:00,150 --> 00:28:59,080
late 40s or early 50s it was a

690
00:29:02,790 --> 00:29:00,160
black-and-white film

691
00:29:05,310 --> 00:29:02,800
and he was a older gentleman and he was

692
00:29:08,910 --> 00:29:05,320
saying I just hope I get to know in my

693
00:29:10,590 --> 00:29:08,920
lifetime you know what what you fo if if

694
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:10,600
it's aliens or not or something he said

695
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:13,330
something like that yeah yeah no it's

696
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:16,930
true it's true I mean you recently I was

697
00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:18,610
doing some stuff writing and maybe we'll

698
00:29:22,290 --> 00:29:20,350
get a chance to talk about it but you

699
00:29:25,050 --> 00:29:22,300
know this is we are at the 50th

700
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:25,060
anniversary of the the issuing of the

701
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:26,410
final report of the Condon committee

702
00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:29,010
back in 1969

703
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:33,640
68 69 and I was writing I was writing

704
00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:35,890
something up about all that and was

705
00:29:42,810 --> 00:29:40,120
looking at those very early weeks and

706
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:42,820
and and months as the Condon committee

707
00:29:48,510 --> 00:29:46,090
started its work in 1966 and if you look

708
00:29:50,610 --> 00:29:48,520
at the coverage what people were saying

709
00:29:54,390 --> 00:29:50,620
was that kind of thing it's there was

710
00:29:55,380 --> 00:29:54,400
huge expectations real excitement about

711
00:29:57,900 --> 00:29:55,390
my god

712
00:29:59,940 --> 00:29:57,910
we're finally gonna have the answers

713
00:30:02,010 --> 00:29:59,950
we're finally going to have people look

714
00:30:04,590 --> 00:30:02,020
into this and and so that to me was

715
00:30:06,750 --> 00:30:04,600
fascinating which to see that that

716
00:30:09,090 --> 00:30:06,760
people from all sort of walks of life

717
00:30:11,670 --> 00:30:09,100
saw that as a great opportunity which

718
00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:11,680
actually was played down we're going

719
00:30:22,140 --> 00:30:14,950
back we're going back where we have like

720
00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:22,150
a 20 seconds race hello we have 40,000

721
00:30:29,310 --> 00:30:26,430
well 45 yeah yeah so there was one

722
00:30:30,780 --> 00:30:29,320
professor that was at the Colorado the

723
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:30,790
university Colorado or something like

724
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:32,890
that right and there I'm trying to

725
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:34,210
remember who the professor was that

726
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:35,620
really wanted to downplay the whole

727
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:37,740
thing and was really pushing it hard

728
00:30:44,450 --> 00:30:42,880
yeah Oh wanted to push what hard the

729
00:30:46,740 --> 00:30:44,460
fact that he wanted to you know come

730
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:46,750
well he wanted the report to say there's

731
00:30:52,230 --> 00:30:50,050
nothing here oh yeah yeah I mean Condon

732
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:52,240
was really the one that's what it's a

733
00:30:58,170 --> 00:30:55,330
course it is yeah committee yes music he

734
00:31:00,270 --> 00:30:58,180
was even now you know I'm I always tell

735
00:31:01,650 --> 00:31:00,280
I always tell people it's sad to say

736
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:01,660
this is a certain I'm terrible with

737
00:31:09,060 --> 00:31:04,450
names and dates it's already in the

738
00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:09,070
report though okay racing back yes we

739
00:31:15,890 --> 00:31:11,260
are okay we're ready on this are you

740
00:31:25,710 --> 00:31:22,110
okay here we go in five four three two

741
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:25,720
all right welcome back my guest tonight

742
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:28,930
is Professor Greg I'm gonna say it wrong

743
00:31:32,010 --> 00:31:31,510
he Orion can you say your name for us

744
00:31:35,970 --> 00:31:32,020
place

745
00:31:38,580 --> 00:31:35,980
Iggy Qian Iggy Iggy in a craggy gig Ian

746
00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:38,590
got it yeah I'm sorry about that don't

747
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:41,260
worry about it yeah yeah seeing the name

748
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:45,850
spelled out scares me so go be great

749
00:31:51,510 --> 00:31:50,230
okay Greg professor Greg so right before

750
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:51,520
we went to break you were talking about

751
00:31:56,130 --> 00:31:53,290
there are some actually younger people

752
00:31:58,500 --> 00:31:56,140
looking into the topic and did you say

753
00:32:01,610 --> 00:31:58,510
that they're they're the phd's no once I

754
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:01,620
know that there has been some thesis

755
00:32:09,450 --> 00:32:07,090
I've talked to Stan Friedman told me

756
00:32:11,220 --> 00:32:09,460
there was a few fewest students that

757
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:11,230
have run their thesis on something to do

758
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:13,390
with UFOs is this what's going on do you

759
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:16,950
think yeah I mean what I what I see is a

760
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:19,300
lot of I'll tell you what a lot of the

761
00:32:23,970 --> 00:32:21,490
younger people who are working on this

762
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:23,980
topic are really interested in is a lot

763
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:27,250
of them I know are working on looking at

764
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:31,020
how the government and militaries

765
00:32:36,150 --> 00:32:33,370
responded to this stuff particularly

766
00:32:37,770 --> 00:32:36,160
they're looking in the 1950s and 60s a

767
00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:37,780
lot of their researches they're

768
00:32:44,190 --> 00:32:39,640
interested in this they're interested in

769
00:32:47,850 --> 00:32:44,200
trying to figure out how this stuff sort

770
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:47,860
of set in motion investigative bodies

771
00:32:53,580 --> 00:32:50,890
and agencies UFO desks as they're called

772
00:32:57,570 --> 00:32:53,590
into place like the UK right how they

773
00:32:59,490 --> 00:32:57,580
responded how they the extent to which

774
00:33:00,390 --> 00:32:59,500
they took this stuff seriously or didn't

775
00:33:04,140 --> 00:33:00,400
take it seriously

776
00:33:06,390 --> 00:33:04,150
and then also how they tried to play

777
00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:06,400
this all out visa vie the media right

778
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:08,140
and all that kind of stuff so that's

779
00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:10,000
kind of what their work a lot of them I

780
00:33:14,190 --> 00:33:12,190
know are working on well that's that's

781
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:14,200
interesting and you know it's funny when

782
00:33:17,940 --> 00:33:16,510
you go to like you you're out at Phoenix

783
00:33:20,220 --> 00:33:17,950
you went to the conference out there and

784
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:20,230
you don't see a lot of young people

785
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:22,090
actually attending you know maybe it's

786
00:33:26,790 --> 00:33:24,490
something they look more or less online

787
00:33:29,820 --> 00:33:26,800
and that's as far as it gets

788
00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:29,830
sure but they're like gathering it I

789
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:32,230
mean there are a few I'm gonna say I'm

790
00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:34,210
not saying there aren't any but there's

791
00:33:38,550 --> 00:33:36,790
just a few compared to you know a lot of

792
00:33:42,780 --> 00:33:38,560
people with the same type of hair you

793
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:42,790
and I have great yeah no I think I think

794
00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:45,090
you're right what you're saying is

795
00:33:50,190 --> 00:33:48,190
confirmed by other people elsewhere you

796
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:50,200
know I do because uh because this

797
00:33:56,070 --> 00:33:53,710
project involves looking at sort of

798
00:33:58,590 --> 00:33:56,080
developments outside the United States I

799
00:34:03,180 --> 00:33:58,600
talked to a lot of connections with a

800
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:03,190
lot of UFO researchers in Europe for

801
00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:06,490
instance and I hear this from people in

802
00:34:13,260 --> 00:34:09,820
Sweden I hear this from people in Italy

803
00:34:15,150 --> 00:34:13,270
I hear this from researchers in Great

804
00:34:18,450 --> 00:34:15,160
Britain that they all are having that

805
00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:18,460
experience that you as one guy said to

806
00:34:23,870 --> 00:34:21,190
me in Sweden it is really hard to get

807
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:23,880
young people involved like we once did

808
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:26,530
they all go to the Internet they all

809
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:28,690
sort of that's tends to be the place

810
00:34:34,169 --> 00:34:31,810
that attracts them and while that that

811
00:34:36,180 --> 00:34:34,179
means they may still be very interested

812
00:34:37,740 --> 00:34:36,190
in this stuff but what it would it on

813
00:34:39,240 --> 00:34:37,750
the other hand what it means is they

814
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:39,250
don't tend to be part of organizations

815
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:41,200
they don't tend to be a part of that

816
00:34:45,900 --> 00:34:43,510
community in the same way that things

817
00:34:48,030 --> 00:34:45,910
used to be right and so I hear this from

818
00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:48,040
a lot of the veterans right who sort of

819
00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:49,750
lament that kind of change happening

820
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:52,630
yeah the only thing I've talked to a lot

821
00:34:56,250 --> 00:34:54,130
of people because I'm also in the fine

822
00:34:58,860 --> 00:34:56,260
arts and antiques I'm an appraiser and

823
00:35:00,830 --> 00:34:58,870
and I've talked to a lot of people were

824
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:00,840
saying that young people are just not

825
00:35:07,050 --> 00:35:03,310
interested they're not going to any

826
00:35:09,020 --> 00:35:07,060
events like you know the the shows the

827
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:09,030
antique shows and things like that but

828
00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:13,090
but what I have seen a great surgeon is

829
00:35:17,850 --> 00:35:16,150
comic-con's there's tons of young people

830
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:17,860
at Comic Cons you know and that's

831
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:20,770
somehow it's the pop culture hook you

832
00:35:25,350 --> 00:35:23,170
know that gets gets them involved and I

833
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:25,360
can't remember who it was it might even

834
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:27,130
been Alejandro that actually went to a

835
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:30,310
Comic Con and set up a booth about Mo's

836
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:36,130
and was successful so yeah yeah but I

837
00:35:39,570 --> 00:35:37,990
would think that would do it and and and

838
00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:39,580
I think probably the gaming community

839
00:35:44,670 --> 00:35:40,750
too right

840
00:35:47,790 --> 00:35:44,680
yeah exactly huge huge yeah so those

841
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:47,800
those are stupid seek connections and

842
00:35:55,170 --> 00:35:53,590
sort of these yeah yeah one of the what

843
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:55,180
do you think of some other reasons why

844
00:35:59,880 --> 00:35:58,240
the this subject is neglected when it

845
00:36:06,320 --> 00:35:59,890
comes to you know academic

846
00:36:10,070 --> 00:36:06,330
academics yeah well I mean I I think I

847
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:10,080
think there I think one of the things is

848
00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:18,250
the sense that there is how shall I put

849
00:36:25,470 --> 00:36:22,750
it no sort of sense or guidance you get

850
00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:25,480
from the mainstream of academic

851
00:36:28,860 --> 00:36:26,670
communities who would naturally

852
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:28,870
gravitate towards this topic that is to

853
00:36:34,140 --> 00:36:31,410
say people like astronomers people like

854
00:36:34,710 --> 00:36:34,150
astrophysicists chemists whatever it

855
00:36:39,150 --> 00:36:34,720
might be

856
00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:39,160
no major organization no sort of large

857
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:41,980
number of people in the field who have

858
00:36:50,340 --> 00:36:45,250
sort of stood up and said this demands

859
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:50,350
all sorts of investigation it you

860
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:52,330
through and and in investigations that

861
00:36:56,070 --> 00:36:54,250
are going to involve federal funding or

862
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:56,080
funding from sort of the the typical

863
00:37:00,930 --> 00:36:58,090
kind of sources you get who then are

864
00:37:02,850 --> 00:37:00,940
gonna after they get this funny then

865
00:37:04,830 --> 00:37:02,860
present their their research in

866
00:37:07,310 --> 00:37:04,840
peer-reviewed journals in other words

867
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:07,320
follow the basic principles of academic

868
00:37:12,090 --> 00:37:10,210
research that that all of us end up

869
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:12,100
doing who were in this line of work

870
00:37:18,750 --> 00:37:15,850
right nobody really has done that and is

871
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:18,760
doing that the Condon committee that was

872
00:37:24,410 --> 00:37:21,520
formed in the 1960s right and that

873
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:24,420
issued its final report fifty years ago

874
00:37:30,090 --> 00:37:27,520
you know was actually tasked with

875
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:30,100
assessing that very question I mean if

876
00:37:34,650 --> 00:37:32,050
you look at the original sort of task

877
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:34,660
for that committee Condon himself says

878
00:37:40,230 --> 00:37:37,450
we were tasked not to decide whether

879
00:37:41,340 --> 00:37:40,240
this was of importance national security

880
00:37:42,570 --> 00:37:41,350
importance he said because the

881
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:42,580
military's already said that's not

882
00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:45,280
important he said what we were tasked to

883
00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:48,190
do was to decide whether the government

884
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:50,230
should think about investing money and

885
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:51,910
investigating this stuff and the

886
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,210
conclusion we came to was no

887
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:56,640
and in a sense that became sort of the

888
00:38:00,500 --> 00:37:58,650
moment in which if the there was kind of

889
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:00,510
a definitive answer on the question at

890
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:02,100
least viewed from the perspective of

891
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:05,370
many and so that meant therefore all the

892
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:07,770
kinds of research that gets done gets

893
00:38:12,260 --> 00:38:09,450
done the way it gets done now which is

894
00:38:14,060 --> 00:38:12,270
right privately gets done by you know

895
00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:14,070
folks who are associated with to the

896
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:17,550
stars right or it gets done by just a

897
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:21,330
lot of average you know folks who are

898
00:38:26,210 --> 00:38:23,220
just interested on their own who do all

899
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:26,220
the legwork on their own right that's

900
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:30,330
its it yeah pardon me Brian in the chat

901
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:32,970
room has written this question here

902
00:38:36,980 --> 00:38:34,830
considering the strong evidence for

903
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:36,990
government disinformation and cover-up

904
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:39,900
is witness testimony the only historical

905
00:38:45,740 --> 00:38:43,050
access point to the UFO topic how does

906
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:45,750
that affect your research yeah that's a

907
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:49,440
good question so you do have the witness

908
00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:51,210
testimony but there's actually quite a

909
00:38:55,820 --> 00:38:53,070
lot I mean one of the one of the things

910
00:38:59,900 --> 00:38:55,830
I hadn't I had not expected when I got

911
00:39:02,780 --> 00:38:59,910
into this was to realize not just how

912
00:39:05,570 --> 00:39:02,790
much material is out there and available

913
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:05,580
anybody who goes and investigates UFOs

914
00:39:08,270 --> 00:39:06,960
right know is that there's a lot of

915
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:08,280
stuff especially in the age of the

916
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:10,890
internet but what I one of the things I

917
00:39:17,330 --> 00:39:15,570
found was that ufologists people who had

918
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:17,340
dating back to the people the very

919
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:21,290
earliest ones back in the 1950s are

920
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:24,930
amazing archivists they all almost all

921
00:39:30,500 --> 00:39:28,320
of them kept all these files and records

922
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:30,510
of their research and naturally they

923
00:39:34,730 --> 00:39:32,520
were doing it right because they were

924
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:34,740
trying to connect dots right they were

925
00:39:40,490 --> 00:39:36,930
trying to see what if there's a patterns

926
00:39:43,970 --> 00:39:40,500
of these things and so most all of them

927
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:43,980
would keep these not only large amounts

928
00:39:47,420 --> 00:39:46,110
of information that they were tracking

929
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:47,430
right either they were getting it

930
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:49,530
through their local organization if they

931
00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:50,910
were involved in an organization and

932
00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:52,380
people they were interviewing or they

933
00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:55,140
would keep newspaper clippings or or

934
00:39:59,450 --> 00:39:57,180
anything along these lines but they

935
00:40:03,260 --> 00:39:59,460
would also keep them very well organized

936
00:40:07,730 --> 00:40:03,270
and so one of the things we have is a

937
00:40:09,950 --> 00:40:07,740
large number of personal papers of UF

938
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:09,960
researchers many of whom now are long

939
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:13,410
gone I learn around anymore you know

940
00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:15,570
Gordon Creighton for instance in the UK

941
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:22,020
right who was one of the big you write

942
00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:24,960
their papers are available in archive so

943
00:40:29,030 --> 00:40:27,150
you can now go into that material and

944
00:40:31,010 --> 00:40:29,040
see the kind of Correspondence that

945
00:40:32,660 --> 00:40:31,020
these people had with people who are

946
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:32,670
writing them saying hey this is

947
00:40:37,310 --> 00:40:33,810
something I've seen or here are some

948
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:37,320
photographs I've taken so we do have the

949
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:40,250
kinds of things of material that that

950
00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:42,810
Bryan's talking about you know from from

951
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:45,119
say Project Blue Book or whatever right

952
00:40:51,410 --> 00:40:48,570
from these sort of military archives or

953
00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:51,420
the the UK defence ministry that

954
00:40:55,850 --> 00:40:53,730
material is there but we also now have

955
00:40:57,620 --> 00:40:55,860
all these other materials and they just

956
00:41:00,410 --> 00:40:57,630
keep growing we have more and more of it

957
00:41:04,490 --> 00:41:00,420
some of the stuff is even online so you

958
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,500
can go back and look at files from you

959
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:06,720
know the organization a pro or files

960
00:41:12,740 --> 00:41:09,210
from people who worked for NICAP right

961
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:12,750
in ways that I wasn't really possible I

962
00:41:17,780 --> 00:41:15,510
think 20 years ago because a lot of

963
00:41:19,940 --> 00:41:17,790
people who've been involved now are

964
00:41:21,590 --> 00:41:19,950
retiring or have passed away and the

965
00:41:24,770 --> 00:41:21,600
sense for a lot of those folks is we

966
00:41:26,540 --> 00:41:24,780
want to leave that information for for

967
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:26,550
history right for people to go and look

968
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:28,530
at so that's that's a lot of what we get

969
00:41:33,590 --> 00:41:31,710
to look at and utilize for sort of

970
00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:33,600
getting a better understanding of sort

971
00:41:40,580 --> 00:41:38,040
of the history of the UFO phenomenon I'm

972
00:41:43,460 --> 00:41:40,590
gonna be my upcoming guest soon as Dave

973
00:41:46,910 --> 00:41:43,470
Marlar and hey is he a search library

974
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,920
and in Albuquerque and that's right

975
00:41:50,390 --> 00:41:48,720
outside of Albuquerque and it's so open

976
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:50,400
for anyone to do research at we're gonna

977
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:53,490
be talking about that and and he's very

978
00:41:59,390 --> 00:41:57,090
useful yeah yeah given my regards I've

979
00:42:01,550 --> 00:41:59,400
met we've met oh you have yeah yeah so

980
00:42:03,349 --> 00:42:01,560
and also you mentioned Sweden the class

981
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:03,359
phone in Sweden they have a wonderful

982
00:42:08,599 --> 00:42:05,760
library there and I saw on your website

983
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:08,609
that you went to Italy pretty jealous so

984
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:10,250
that you get to go over there and and

985
00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:13,170
this is either library there you want to

986
00:42:16,270 --> 00:42:14,280
talk a little bit about that it was in

987
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:16,280
Turin or how do you say it were yeah

988
00:42:24,620 --> 00:42:21,890
yeah and yeah I was in Turin and Eduardo

989
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:24,630
Rousseau invited me I had a chance to

990
00:42:30,590 --> 00:42:26,760
chat with him and several other of the

991
00:42:32,270 --> 00:42:30,600
the kind of veterans involved in UFO

992
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:32,280
reach I mean my god a lot of them and

993
00:42:40,420 --> 00:42:35,910
active since the 1970s working but your

994
00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:40,430
Christ quite right the the the the Turin

995
00:42:46,370 --> 00:42:43,980
Research Center in library is really

996
00:42:47,900 --> 00:42:46,380
second I mean in this way at least

997
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:47,910
Eduardo talked about it with me it

998
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:50,040
certainly looked that way to me is is

999
00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:52,290
second only to the one in Sweden and in

1000
00:42:56,660 --> 00:42:54,300
noir shop being Sweden in terms of its

1001
00:42:59,540 --> 00:42:56,670
size in terms of the amount of material

1002
00:43:01,490 --> 00:42:59,550
they have and in both places what you

1003
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:01,500
what you see when you go out into these

1004
00:43:06,620 --> 00:43:03,359
places first of all is you have these

1005
00:43:09,470 --> 00:43:06,630
amazingly friendly kind and generous

1006
00:43:11,150 --> 00:43:09,480
people who sort of open up the place to

1007
00:43:14,990 --> 00:43:11,160
you give you a sense of what's there and

1008
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:15,000
then let you drown but what you also see

1009
00:43:22,849 --> 00:43:18,650
is is a is a remarkable collection of

1010
00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:22,859
material as I say ranging from you know

1011
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:25,260
the personal papers of UFO researchers

1012
00:43:28,370 --> 00:43:26,520
who want to make sure that all this

1013
00:43:30,770 --> 00:43:28,380
stuff that they did gets preserved but

1014
00:43:34,070 --> 00:43:30,780
you also have a also the important work

1015
00:43:38,420 --> 00:43:34,080
of collecting entire periodicals right

1016
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:38,430
mat UFO magazines UFO newsletters of not

1017
00:43:43,460 --> 00:43:40,650
just national organizations but also

1018
00:43:46,910 --> 00:43:43,470
local ones the kind of things that

1019
00:43:50,420 --> 00:43:46,920
frankly tend to disappear over time

1020
00:43:52,580 --> 00:43:50,430
right that stuff is absolutely

1021
00:43:54,830 --> 00:43:52,590
invaluable for anybody who wants to do

1022
00:43:57,950 --> 00:43:54,840
historical research and to reconstruct

1023
00:44:01,060 --> 00:43:57,960
the way people used to go about doing

1024
00:44:03,620 --> 00:44:01,070
things that's me is really cool stuff -

1025
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:03,630
yeah with stickers on it to take a look

1026
00:44:11,390 --> 00:44:07,410
at so so well documented and you know

1027
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:11,400
there are you know just in what I do as

1028
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:12,810
far as appraising and things like that I

1029
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:15,300
know that so many things get tossed out

1030
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:17,190
like they say that you know every him

1031
00:44:22,430 --> 00:44:19,980
Lincoln was a lawyer for you know 25

1032
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:22,440
years and people have deeds up in their

1033
00:44:26,060 --> 00:44:23,850
attic they have no idea they're signed

1034
00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:26,070
by Abraham Lincoln you know three or

1035
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:28,020
four thousand dollar signature you know

1036
00:44:32,990 --> 00:44:30,810
type of thing so everything a lot of

1037
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:33,000
things do get just plain tossed out and

1038
00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:35,250
I think of for instance Paul Ben

1039
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:36,600
it's case I don't know if you've ever

1040
00:44:43,550 --> 00:44:40,130
heard of Paul bennewitz in in New Mexico

1041
00:44:46,190 --> 00:44:43,560
but anyway you know I'm sure there's a

1042
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:46,200
lot of documents in that family and it

1043
00:44:54,170 --> 00:44:52,170
in it ended very poorly for him so no

1044
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:54,180
one really wants to go in and try to

1045
00:44:58,730 --> 00:44:56,250
talk to the family about you know trying

1046
00:45:00,740 --> 00:44:58,740
to get new information but yeah it's

1047
00:45:02,150 --> 00:45:00,750
great to preserve it and again the show

1048
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:02,160
I'll be doing with Dave Marlow will be

1049
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:05,930
discussing a lot of that so as far as

1050
00:45:11,540 --> 00:45:08,850
what do you consider some of the really

1051
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:11,550
interesting historical cases that are

1052
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:14,010
pretty solid and you know made an

1053
00:45:19,460 --> 00:45:17,310
impression on you yeah so you know what

1054
00:45:21,650 --> 00:45:19,470
I always say to folks is for me what

1055
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:21,660
would interest me and I get particularly

1056
00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:23,370
sort of excited about the geeky

1057
00:45:31,220 --> 00:45:26,790
historian here is you know I get it I

1058
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:31,230
get excited by by certain figures or

1059
00:45:37,690 --> 00:45:34,410
certain kinds of moments in history

1060
00:45:40,370 --> 00:45:37,700
where I feel like there is a sort of a

1061
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:40,380
meeting or a kind of an intersection of

1062
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:43,170
a lot of different forces that often

1063
00:45:49,130 --> 00:45:45,570
means forces that are in a collision

1064
00:45:52,130 --> 00:45:49,140
course and and they maybe provoke a kind

1065
00:45:53,810 --> 00:45:52,140
of a bruja right about so a lot of those

1066
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:53,820
things are the things that sort of get

1067
00:45:59,930 --> 00:45:56,490
my attention I mean I'm kind of

1068
00:46:04,790 --> 00:45:59,940
fascinated for instance I especially

1069
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:04,800
with say something like the the the

1070
00:46:09,410 --> 00:46:07,050
Betty and Barney Hill abduction case

1071
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:09,420
right which in many ways right a lot of

1072
00:46:15,860 --> 00:46:12,090
people see is sort of the first the the

1073
00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:15,870
the first case we know it wasn't the

1074
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:17,730
first case but but it's the one that

1075
00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:19,260
gets all the attention particularly in

1076
00:46:24,470 --> 00:46:21,900
the United States in a sense the case

1077
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:24,480
itself is intriguing but what's really

1078
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:27,930
kind of striking to me that about about

1079
00:46:32,990 --> 00:46:31,170
this this case that that you know sort

1080
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:33,000
of comes to the public public attention

1081
00:46:38,990 --> 00:46:37,890
I think only in watts 65 1965-1966 even

1082
00:46:42,290 --> 00:46:39,000
though it's supposed to have taken place

1083
00:46:45,620 --> 00:46:42,300
several years earlier is that you have

1084
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:45,630
kind of this intriguing thing which is

1085
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:47,850
that you've got the hills and they're

1086
00:46:53,180 --> 00:46:49,110
experienced you

1087
00:46:55,850 --> 00:46:53,190
them going to Donald Kehoe and people in

1088
00:46:57,830 --> 00:46:55,860
nycap for assistance in making sense of

1089
00:47:00,170 --> 00:46:57,840
this and then they can sort of conduct

1090
00:47:02,810 --> 00:47:00,180
their own investigation you then have

1091
00:47:04,910 --> 00:47:02,820
this famous journalist at the time

1092
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:04,920
another kind of an unsung person in the

1093
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:09,210
history of UFOs is John fuller who I

1094
00:47:13,670 --> 00:47:11,160
heard you just talking about Exeter

1095
00:47:16,070 --> 00:47:13,680
right and who wrote the city at Exeter

1096
00:47:20,420 --> 00:47:16,080
right but then he writes the interrupted

1097
00:47:23,570 --> 00:47:20,430
journey who really makes that case is

1098
00:47:27,470 --> 00:47:23,580
the key to making that case what it was

1099
00:47:30,110 --> 00:47:27,480
by writing it up in a book that is

1100
00:47:32,750 --> 00:47:30,120
absolutely riveting right in a way that

1101
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:32,760
probably Barney and Betty could not have

1102
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:34,290
done so you needed this sort of

1103
00:47:39,530 --> 00:47:37,890
journalist figure to sort of do that but

1104
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:39,540
then what's kind of intriguing to me

1105
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:43,440
about it is that while this becomes a

1106
00:47:48,770 --> 00:47:46,050
best-selling book while he gets lots and

1107
00:47:50,810 --> 00:47:48,780
lots of attention by and large the

1108
00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:50,820
interesting thing is you don't get a lot

1109
00:47:56,420 --> 00:47:53,910
of stories of alien abduction until

1110
00:48:00,220 --> 00:47:56,430
really in the mid to late part of the

1111
00:48:03,350 --> 00:48:00,230
1970s you don't get a lot of people

1112
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:03,360
saying similar things you don't get you

1113
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:05,280
know the kind of dig on this is that

1114
00:48:09,110 --> 00:48:07,050
that well what this does is it creates a

1115
00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:09,120
model for copycats and people who are

1116
00:48:13,850 --> 00:48:11,220
gonna mimic it right but you don't have

1117
00:48:17,060 --> 00:48:13,860
that that doesn't really happen it takes

1118
00:48:19,670 --> 00:48:17,070
about ten years for you to start to see

1119
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:19,680
the emergence of things that that you

1120
00:48:23,390 --> 00:48:21,330
know Travis Walton right the Travis

1121
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:23,400
Waltons story that then takes place for

1122
00:48:27,530 --> 00:48:25,290
instance and it's it it shares some

1123
00:48:29,810 --> 00:48:27,540
elements of this stuff but it's not the

1124
00:48:32,420 --> 00:48:29,820
same kind of a story so I find to me

1125
00:48:35,210 --> 00:48:32,430
what's kind of interesting is both the

1126
00:48:37,370 --> 00:48:35,220
way in which that that that that story

1127
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:37,380
about the the scenario of alien

1128
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:39,510
abduction that comes with all the hills

1129
00:48:44,780 --> 00:48:41,730
takes shape but I'm also kind of

1130
00:48:46,670 --> 00:48:44,790
intrigued by this sort of lag this sort

1131
00:48:49,070 --> 00:48:46,680
of almost ten year period in which

1132
00:48:51,170 --> 00:48:49,080
there's not anything else that sort of

1133
00:48:53,450 --> 00:48:51,180
gets people's attention on the same

1134
00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:53,460
scale for another ten years or so

1135
00:48:59,630 --> 00:48:56,460
why how is it that that happens what is

1136
00:49:02,720 --> 00:48:59,640
it about that case or how it was written

1137
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:02,730
up or or how people sort of moved on

1138
00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:05,010
two other topics that meant that this

1139
00:49:09,650 --> 00:49:07,500
case really doesn't take the sort of

1140
00:49:12,859 --> 00:49:09,660
assume the stature it does until really

1141
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:12,869
the 1970s and 80s and that's when the

1142
00:49:18,770 --> 00:49:15,570
hills case really becomes kind of the

1143
00:49:21,410 --> 00:49:18,780
cause celeb right in in terms of alien

1144
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:21,420
abduction stories right there movie came

1145
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:23,730
out I can't remember exactly what your

1146
00:49:30,650 --> 00:49:28,410
was the step is yeah yeah yeah and so it

1147
00:49:33,290 --> 00:49:30,660
it it really doesn't sort of take on

1148
00:49:34,940 --> 00:49:33,300
that kind of stature and you know you

1149
00:49:38,510 --> 00:49:34,950
could say the same thing about Roswell

1150
00:49:40,940 --> 00:49:38,520
right Roswell wasn't a big story for

1151
00:49:43,609 --> 00:49:40,950
many decades right until Stan Friedman

1152
00:49:46,580 --> 00:49:43,619
sort of made it into one and and sort of

1153
00:49:47,780 --> 00:49:46,590
and rediscovered the story right so that

1154
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:47,790
that kind of that's a kind of an

1155
00:49:53,420 --> 00:49:50,130
intriguing sort of lesson in the way in

1156
00:49:55,849 --> 00:49:53,430
which things can emerge then disappear

1157
00:49:58,490 --> 00:49:55,859
and then reimagine as sort of getting on

1158
00:50:01,550 --> 00:49:58,500
people's radar right I asked Stan last

1159
00:50:03,470 --> 00:50:01,560
time I spoke with him if he thought that

1160
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:03,480
the Roswell story would have come out if

1161
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:07,410
he did not have that situation where you

1162
00:50:11,030 --> 00:50:09,210
know where he stumbled into the whole

1163
00:50:13,340 --> 00:50:11,040
thing you know was actually he was

1164
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:13,350
waiting at a radio station and the topic

1165
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:17,090
just came up to talk to mmm you know

1166
00:50:21,530 --> 00:50:19,170
that's kind of how that whole thing

1167
00:50:22,849 --> 00:50:21,540
happened and I think he said that he

1168
00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:22,859
thinks it would have come out just you

1169
00:50:29,150 --> 00:50:25,590
know just eventually and probably would

1170
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:29,160
have you know but who knows yes yeah and

1171
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:31,920
so what do you think of that do you

1172
00:50:36,260 --> 00:50:33,930
think that that whole thing has been

1173
00:50:38,150 --> 00:50:36,270
blown way out of proportion or what do

1174
00:50:41,330 --> 00:50:38,160
you think about Roswell in general yeah

1175
00:50:45,290 --> 00:50:41,340
I mean I think I think the the the the

1176
00:50:46,820 --> 00:50:45,300
Roswell case is is again so I look at

1177
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:46,830
things again I look at things pretty

1178
00:50:51,980 --> 00:50:49,050
differently you know one of things I

1179
00:50:56,150 --> 00:50:51,990
always tell people whether I'm talking

1180
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:56,160
to you know a professor of physics and

1181
00:51:01,580 --> 00:50:59,040
astrophysics or talking to somebody

1182
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:01,590
who's had a UFO experience or talking to

1183
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:03,210
somebody like Stan Freeman I tell

1184
00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:05,090
everybody the same thing which is that

1185
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:08,040
my approach to this stuff is I just

1186
00:51:14,740 --> 00:51:10,710
stand I'm I'm an outsider in a sense

1187
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:14,750
okay I I do not go about picking sides

1188
00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:16,590
trying to decide

1189
00:51:20,890 --> 00:51:19,350
is this real or is or is this something

1190
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:20,900
to debunk or is this something to

1191
00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:23,520
promote and say people need to take more

1192
00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:25,950
take this more seriously my approaches

1193
00:51:31,220 --> 00:51:28,950
is really for lack of a better term or

1194
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:31,230
journalistic if you will right and so

1195
00:51:37,610 --> 00:51:33,480
what I'm kind of interested in when I

1196
00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:37,620
look at a case like Roswell is the the

1197
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:40,260
kind of PR about it right and and

1198
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:42,510
particularly at the moment the PR about

1199
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:46,410
it it's a it is a case in which clearly

1200
00:51:51,950 --> 00:51:49,680
secrets were being kept about about an

1201
00:51:55,910 --> 00:51:51,960
event that took place in an area where

1202
00:51:58,250 --> 00:51:55,920
the military was active right now that

1203
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:58,260
is not an unusual thing to happen right

1204
00:52:02,990 --> 00:52:00,420
this is what the military doesn't it

1205
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:03,000
particularly does those things in the

1206
00:52:09,110 --> 00:52:05,250
wake of World War two I think what we

1207
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:09,120
often forget is the kind of secrecy and

1208
00:52:16,220 --> 00:52:12,330
that the resistance to talking about

1209
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:16,230
anything related to military technology

1210
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:19,680
military investigations and all that we

1211
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:21,450
associate with the Cold War was a

1212
00:52:25,850 --> 00:52:23,910
phenomenon that precedes the Cold War it

1213
00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:25,860
was something that was a big part of

1214
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:28,980
world war two and so when things start

1215
00:52:34,730 --> 00:52:31,350
to bleed into the Cold War in the in

1216
00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:34,740
those mid 1940s there's just a carryover

1217
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:36,510
that takes place it's kind of the

1218
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:38,910
default setting of the military is

1219
00:52:42,860 --> 00:52:41,850
always deny everything right it's just

1220
00:52:45,860 --> 00:52:42,870
deny everything

1221
00:52:47,630 --> 00:52:45,870
and so in a sense I I've often looked at

1222
00:52:50,540 --> 00:52:47,640
that and said that kind of response to

1223
00:52:53,660 --> 00:52:50,550
me doesn't read as conspiracy to me it

1224
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:53,670
reads as you know this is just what we

1225
00:53:00,560 --> 00:52:56,490
do we don't like to share information

1226
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:00,570
about the things that go on you know on

1227
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:03,540
our bases or or in our encampments right

1228
00:53:11,390 --> 00:53:07,910
and so to me when it comes to these

1229
00:53:13,310 --> 00:53:11,400
concerns that people have about why why

1230
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:13,320
don't we get more information can't we

1231
00:53:18,670 --> 00:53:15,810
get more information what I see and what

1232
00:53:21,590 --> 00:53:18,680
I read is a kind of a situation in which

1233
00:53:23,450 --> 00:53:21,600
the authorities in question clearly had

1234
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:23,460
reasons because they were playing around

1235
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:27,570
with with all sorts of new technologies

1236
00:53:30,930 --> 00:53:29,490
that they didn't want the Soviet Union

1237
00:53:34,750 --> 00:53:30,940
to have any aware

1238
00:53:36,970 --> 00:53:34,760
they are going to concoct things they

1239
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:36,980
are going to change their stories if it

1240
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:39,920
means it creates a little more cloud

1241
00:53:44,170 --> 00:53:42,200
ease up the picture in some way and so I

1242
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:44,180
think that adds a lot of fuel to the

1243
00:53:49,390 --> 00:53:44,720
fire

1244
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:49,400
definitely and after the war you know

1245
00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:52,160
the everyone did take the government

1246
00:53:58,300 --> 00:53:54,710
very seriously and you know the oath

1247
00:54:02,290 --> 00:53:58,310
very seriously and you know so there was

1248
00:54:05,470 --> 00:54:02,300
a lot of that so we are ready to go into

1249
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:05,480
break and we'll see if we have some

1250
00:54:10,030 --> 00:54:08,210
questions coming up so go come all right

1251
00:54:15,570 --> 00:54:10,040
sorry one hang in there we'll be right

1252
00:54:20,740 --> 00:54:18,430
all right Martin we're clear just again

1253
00:54:24,070 --> 00:54:20,750
over four minutes in this break got it

1254
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:24,080
okay thanks a lot yeah okay so let's see

1255
00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:28,130
looking to see if we had any other any

1256
00:54:32,110 --> 00:54:30,170
other questions so have you heard of

1257
00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:32,120
John Greenwald someone mentioned him in

1258
00:54:38,380 --> 00:54:35,230
the chat room he has released a lot of

1259
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:38,390
Freedom of Information Act documents you

1260
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:40,610
know I'm gonna say hundreds of thousands

1261
00:54:44,770 --> 00:54:43,040
of documents mmm he's really you know

1262
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:44,780
you talk about he's he's on the younger

1263
00:54:50,890 --> 00:54:48,880
side and so he's doing this all digital

1264
00:54:56,350 --> 00:54:50,900
mm-hmm so there's a lot of information

1265
00:54:59,920 --> 00:54:56,360
because of him and so and a lot of on

1266
00:55:04,510 --> 00:54:59,930
historical cases so I will tell you that

1267
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:04,520
after after we go back we're gonna open

1268
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:06,650
the phone lines to so if anyone wants to

1269
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:08,690
call in we'll be taking calls a little

1270
00:55:15,940 --> 00:55:14,960
bit later on so let's see I do have a

1271
00:55:20,290 --> 00:55:15,950
question

1272
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:20,300
some histories from do you ever look

1273
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:23,200
into any of the histories from

1274
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:25,490
pertaining to the Bible and aliens

1275
00:55:31,350 --> 00:55:28,490
that's a question in chat yeah yeah I

1276
00:55:35,290 --> 00:55:31,360
mean well you know because I think

1277
00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:35,300
what's intriguing is there right after

1278
00:55:44,180 --> 00:55:42,110
very soon very very soon after the the

1279
00:55:46,130 --> 00:55:44,190
whole appearance of the first

1280
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:46,140
saucers of the kennel Kenneth Arnold

1281
00:55:53,599 --> 00:55:49,650
sighting in 47 within the span of just a

1282
00:55:59,180 --> 00:55:53,609
few years you do get people who start to

1283
00:56:03,559 --> 00:55:59,190
say that that that UFOs are of direct

1284
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,569
relevance to religion and to the Bible

1285
00:56:08,510 --> 00:56:05,280
right and that you gather that two

1286
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:08,520
counts one our theologians actually it's

1287
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:11,250
actually real honest-to-god theologians

1288
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:14,130
in both Protestant and and and Catholic

1289
00:56:20,329 --> 00:56:16,890
churches who are asking questions and

1290
00:56:23,170 --> 00:56:20,339
say the if these are aliens this raises

1291
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:23,180
all sorts of theological questions right

1292
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:27,359
are these people saved who are they are

1293
00:56:33,710 --> 00:56:30,089
they are they are they the equivalent of

1294
00:56:36,529 --> 00:56:33,720
fallen angels or are they perhaps you

1295
00:56:38,660 --> 00:56:36,539
know beings who have their who are

1296
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:38,670
actually living in paradise and who are

1297
00:56:43,309 --> 00:56:40,770
now visiting us I mean there's actual in

1298
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:43,319
the ninety nineteen fifties real serious

1299
00:56:48,740 --> 00:56:45,530
discussions about this among theologians

1300
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:48,750
but then which you also get our people

1301
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:53,490
and there's a very famous Russian figure

1302
00:56:56,839 --> 00:56:54,930
by the name of aggressed

1303
00:56:59,900 --> 00:56:56,849
who does the research on this who

1304
00:57:02,539 --> 00:56:59,910
basically starts to say I think we need

1305
00:57:04,519 --> 00:57:02,549
to look at documents like the Bible and

1306
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:04,529
like archaeological evidence and look

1307
00:57:11,390 --> 00:57:07,890
for any indications that these might be

1308
00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:11,400
alien in nature and origins right so

1309
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:14,609
that that kind of line of questioning

1310
00:57:21,019 --> 00:57:17,730
that kind of thing opens up actually

1311
00:57:23,059 --> 00:57:21,029
already in the early 1950s I think is

1312
00:57:25,670 --> 00:57:23,069
when a Gress starts to do this stuff a

1313
00:57:27,769 --> 00:57:25,680
way before erich von Daniken and people

1314
00:57:30,410 --> 00:57:27,779
like that he's doing this decades

1315
00:57:32,569 --> 00:57:30,420
beforehand and so it does lead the

1316
00:57:35,390 --> 00:57:32,579
people to start to and if you look at

1317
00:57:37,819 --> 00:57:35,400
the lot of UFO periodicals in the 50s

1318
00:57:40,370 --> 00:57:37,829
there's already a lot of people who are

1319
00:57:43,010 --> 00:57:40,380
very very interested in drawing those

1320
00:57:45,230 --> 00:57:43,020
connections and seeing are there ways to

1321
00:57:48,319 --> 00:57:45,240
see evidence in the Bible that might

1322
00:57:50,450 --> 00:57:48,329
reflect back on what what's happening to

1323
00:57:53,599 --> 00:57:50,460
us today and vice versa might

1324
00:57:55,279 --> 00:57:53,609
UFOs be a give us a way to revisit some

1325
00:57:57,079 --> 00:57:55,289
of those passages in the Bible so

1326
00:57:57,880 --> 00:57:57,089
there's there's a story to be told about

1327
00:58:00,310 --> 00:57:57,890
those connect

1328
00:58:03,730 --> 00:58:00,320
and the way that gets sort of minted in

1329
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:03,740
the early 50s and 60s I see yeah well

1330
00:58:07,090 --> 00:58:05,330
we're coming back in about 20 seconds

1331
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:07,100
but someone did have a question about

1332
00:58:11,650 --> 00:58:09,650
your thoughts on ancient aliens but I

1333
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:11,660
don't think we're gonna have time to

1334
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:13,850
cover that in this break so we will

1335
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:17,510
carry that into the show itself and how

1336
00:58:23,050 --> 00:58:20,690
are we ready to go back live we've got

1337
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:23,060
just over 20 seconds all right that

1338
00:58:29,530 --> 00:58:26,480
sounds good so we will again we'll be

1339
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:29,540
taking calls right after we go back live

1340
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:32,240
and sometimes people call and sometimes

1341
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:32,690
they don't

1342
00:58:38,950 --> 00:58:36,970
we'll see what happens again we'll have

1343
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:38,960
commercial-free in the second half of

1344
00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:40,880
the show yeah sounds good

1345
00:58:48,850 --> 00:58:42,800
all right Upper music is about to begin

1346
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:48,860
here in two seconds let's let this roll

1347
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:51,850
for just a second here and then and

1348
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:54,110
we're right on we're right on time

1349
00:59:01,800 --> 00:58:57,490
perfectly right at the top of the hour

1350
00:59:08,890 --> 00:59:01,810
all right here we go Martin yep in five

1351
00:59:11,170 --> 00:59:08,900
four three two all right welcome back my

1352
00:59:15,730 --> 00:59:11,180
guest is Professor Greg how do you like

1353
00:59:17,980 --> 00:59:15,740
that yeah so we're having a good time

1354
00:59:23,380 --> 00:59:17,990
we're talking about the history of UFOs

1355
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:23,390
and earlier on we with Alejandro I was

1356
00:59:27,610 --> 00:59:25,280
talking about SETI I heard your take on

1357
00:59:28,780 --> 00:59:27,620
SETI and I wanted to discuss that a

1358
00:59:32,110 --> 00:59:28,790
little bit what you thought in general

1359
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:32,120
and I think I believe I heard you say

1360
00:59:38,170 --> 00:59:34,010
you think there's some type of parallel

1361
00:59:39,690 --> 00:59:38,180
between ufology and and SETI and so like

1362
00:59:44,020 --> 00:59:39,700
for you to discuss that if you would

1363
00:59:49,180 --> 00:59:44,030
yeah I think there is I mean so you know

1364
00:59:51,550 --> 00:59:49,190
SETI is born in in the basically right

1365
00:59:54,250 --> 00:59:51,560
around the turn of the 1960s so right

1366
00:59:58,600 --> 00:59:54,260
around right 59 60 61 that group that

1367
01:00:01,720 --> 00:59:58,610
forms that becomes this you know Frank

1368
01:00:05,740 --> 01:00:01,730
Drake and Carl Sagan among others who

1369
01:00:08,530 --> 01:00:05,750
are involved in that if if you look at a

1370
01:00:10,810 --> 01:00:08,540
SETI in the way said he plays out it's

1371
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:10,820
it's really intriguing particularly when

1372
01:00:13,780 --> 01:00:11,450
you think about

1373
01:00:23,860 --> 01:00:13,790
historically for a couple of reasons one

1374
01:00:27,010 --> 01:00:23,870
is similar to UFO UFO u futures who have

1375
01:00:30,460 --> 01:00:27,020
this idea that maybe what we do is we

1376
01:00:32,740 --> 01:00:30,470
can try to detect signals that are being

1377
01:00:34,060 --> 01:00:32,750
sent sent to us or might possibly be

1378
01:00:35,590 --> 01:00:34,070
being sent in our direction

1379
01:00:37,690 --> 01:00:35,600
um they where they're walking a

1380
01:00:39,460 --> 01:00:37,700
tightrope because a lot of people in

1381
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:39,470
their community are thinking this is

1382
01:00:44,770 --> 01:00:42,130
kind of crazy this doesn't seem to be

1383
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:44,780
normal kind of science to us and so

1384
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:47,810
they're kind of having to walk this kind

1385
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:51,050
of tightrope and and that's something

1386
01:00:56,050 --> 01:00:53,810
similar to what you see in ufology is is

1387
01:00:58,840 --> 01:00:56,060
this question is you know sometimes hey

1388
01:01:01,210 --> 01:00:58,850
is this line of investigation really

1389
01:01:03,700 --> 01:01:01,220
warranted is this maybe a bit on the

1390
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:03,710
margins that kind of thing but what you

1391
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:06,170
also get to my mind is the interesting

1392
01:01:11,020 --> 01:01:09,110
thing about SETI is that that that for

1393
01:01:13,630 --> 01:01:11,030
all of the work that's been done and all

1394
01:01:16,660 --> 01:01:13,640
of the thinking about SETI basically has

1395
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:16,670
been as a scientific venture been not

1396
01:01:21,580 --> 01:01:18,890
terribly well funded relative to other

1397
01:01:23,890 --> 01:01:21,590
kind of big scientific projects similar

1398
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:23,900
ufology which has always been under

1399
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:28,310
under financed and under funded and that

1400
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:31,970
it has basically not of course had any

1401
01:01:37,150 --> 01:01:34,130
real positives to show for it right it

1402
01:01:39,550 --> 01:01:37,160
hasn't had any major findings

1403
01:01:41,950 --> 01:01:39,560
in fact this has if you look at the

1404
01:01:44,650 --> 01:01:41,960
history of SETI when it's it's basically

1405
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:44,660
it went before the government to try to

1406
01:01:49,660 --> 01:01:46,730
get funding this has been one of the

1407
01:01:52,060 --> 01:01:49,670
hurdles it has historically faced is why

1408
01:01:53,830 --> 01:01:52,070
would we finance you when we don't get

1409
01:01:56,070 --> 01:01:53,840
results and I think that the what the

1410
01:01:58,720 --> 01:01:56,080
argument I think I keep I kept seeing

1411
01:02:01,330 --> 01:01:58,730
when you look at it is well but what

1412
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:01,340
happens when we do yeah if we find

1413
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:04,010
something it'll be well worth it but yes

1414
01:02:09,370 --> 01:02:06,170
this is a bit of a needle in a haystack

1415
01:02:12,910 --> 01:02:09,380
stay hates that kind of project and so

1416
01:02:15,730 --> 01:02:12,920
we get that yeah so in a way you know

1417
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:15,740
ufology and SETI they have they they

1418
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:18,250
share a very similar fate to one another

1419
01:02:25,540 --> 01:02:24,530
and they do sort of play at a game in

1420
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:25,550
which a lot of

1421
01:02:34,810 --> 01:02:28,910
what they have to do is to in fact try

1422
01:02:37,330 --> 01:02:34,820
to make a case to funders to people who

1423
01:02:39,340 --> 01:02:37,340
have some money and also to make their

1424
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:39,350
case to the public directly right that's

1425
01:02:42,340 --> 01:02:40,730
where they really have to make their

1426
01:02:45,850 --> 01:02:42,350
case they keep saying we're this close

1427
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:45,860
were this close yeah we have a caller on

1428
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:47,570
the line caller your first name and

1429
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:50,450
where you're calling from hey guys

1430
01:02:54,610 --> 01:02:52,160
that's Christopher from Phoenix Arizona

1431
01:02:56,970 --> 01:02:54,620
hi Christopher welcome to the show

1432
01:03:00,000 --> 01:02:56,980
you have a question for our guest yeah

1433
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:00,010
yeah thanks for taking my call and a

1434
01:03:07,150 --> 01:03:03,290
subject that I find confounding out

1435
01:03:08,650 --> 01:03:07,160
often is cattle mutilation and I don't I

1436
01:03:10,030 --> 01:03:08,660
know a lot of people talk about UFOs

1437
01:03:12,190 --> 01:03:10,040
people who aren't really interested in

1438
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:12,200
UFOs will sort of think about or talk

1439
01:03:16,540 --> 01:03:14,480
about ET and that kind of stuff in a

1440
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:16,550
vague way but I almost hear no one

1441
01:03:22,180 --> 01:03:18,610
outside of the hardcore sort of

1442
01:03:24,460 --> 01:03:22,190
paranormal or us ology even knowing

1443
01:03:26,890 --> 01:03:24,470
about this cattle mutilation thing which

1444
01:03:28,330 --> 01:03:26,900
is so weird it's almost hard to think

1445
01:03:31,630 --> 01:03:28,340
about it's hard to talk about it so

1446
01:03:33,310 --> 01:03:31,640
McCobb but you know I it just seems like

1447
01:03:35,590 --> 01:03:33,320
something very odd is happening and I'll

1448
01:03:36,850 --> 01:03:35,600
just curious what you guessed it have

1449
01:03:41,980 --> 01:03:36,860
anything to say about that or a thoughts

1450
01:03:44,050 --> 01:03:41,990
on that okay yeah yeah wow that's neat

1451
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:44,060
yeah I mean what's interesting about

1452
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:50,330
that is is the stories of of cattle of

1453
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:54,290
cattle mutilation or actual a lot of you

1454
01:04:00,640 --> 01:03:56,570
also get stories of cattle abductions

1455
01:04:03,070 --> 01:04:00,650
right actually precede the whole sort of

1456
01:04:06,670 --> 01:04:03,080
flying saucer phenomenon that emerges in

1457
01:04:08,500 --> 01:04:06,680
the 1940s you have in in you know

1458
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:08,510
there's a very very famous incident that

1459
01:04:12,070 --> 01:04:09,890
a lot of people have written about and

1460
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:12,080
talked about of a big airship scare in

1461
01:04:17,950 --> 01:04:15,920
the late 1890s right and what we know is

1462
01:04:20,290 --> 01:04:17,960
some of the stories that were told about

1463
01:04:23,290 --> 01:04:20,300
these strange airships that supposedly

1464
01:04:24,700 --> 01:04:23,300
were appearing all across the United

1465
01:04:29,770 --> 01:04:24,710
States is that there were several cases

1466
01:04:33,010 --> 01:04:29,780
in which supposedly witnesses saw their

1467
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:33,020
cattle or at least one cow being sort of

1468
01:04:39,580 --> 01:04:36,170
taken up by like ropes or something by

1469
01:04:41,980 --> 01:04:39,590
this airship and

1470
01:04:44,770 --> 01:04:41,990
and that that that that becomes sort of

1471
01:04:46,990 --> 01:04:44,780
part of that kind of lore that surrounds

1472
01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:47,000
that particular scare but you what we

1473
01:04:51,340 --> 01:04:49,130
also know from from people who study

1474
01:04:54,010 --> 01:04:51,350
folklore particularly of peasant

1475
01:04:56,980 --> 01:04:54,020
communities rural communities is that

1476
01:05:00,609 --> 01:04:56,990
this this this kind of idea that that

1477
01:05:05,130 --> 01:05:00,619
cattle are being attacked mutilated

1478
01:05:08,349 --> 01:05:05,140
kidnapped stolen and things like this by

1479
01:05:11,170 --> 01:05:08,359
not just your average rustlers right but

1480
01:05:13,540 --> 01:05:11,180
by something mysterious or by perhaps an

1481
01:05:16,990 --> 01:05:13,550
animal or a beast of some kind is

1482
01:05:20,170 --> 01:05:17,000
something that goes back very very early

1483
01:05:21,970 --> 01:05:20,180
in in history and I've heard folklorists

1484
01:05:24,730 --> 01:05:21,980
talk about it saying that what it has a

1485
01:05:27,250 --> 01:05:24,740
lot to do with is that these are stories

1486
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:27,260
that are supposed to be kind of warnings

1487
01:05:32,740 --> 01:05:30,490
to people who of course live in live

1488
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:32,750
typically particularly the small peasant

1489
01:05:36,340 --> 01:05:34,850
farmer they didn't say if you think

1490
01:05:38,950 --> 01:05:36,350
about the Middle Ages or something are

1491
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:38,960
living basically like hand-to-mouth and

1492
01:05:45,940 --> 01:05:43,330
so the idea that cattle could be

1493
01:05:48,730 --> 01:05:45,950
destroyed or harmed or killed or

1494
01:05:52,180 --> 01:05:48,740
mutilated in some way becomes part of a

1495
01:05:54,820 --> 01:05:52,190
story about how precarious how insecure

1496
01:05:56,980 --> 01:05:54,830
life life on these farms were

1497
01:05:59,680 --> 01:05:56,990
particularly back in those days right

1498
01:06:02,260 --> 01:05:59,690
and so what I find kind of interesting

1499
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:02,270
about it therefore is that that the

1500
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:05,930
stories about cattles being endangered

1501
01:06:10,870 --> 01:06:08,930
right and the possibly being endangered

1502
01:06:12,910 --> 01:06:10,880
by things that are not entirely human

1503
01:06:14,859 --> 01:06:12,920
are in fact stories that date back

1504
01:06:16,570 --> 01:06:14,869
hundreds and hundreds of years actually

1505
01:06:20,349 --> 01:06:16,580
Wow interesting

1506
01:06:21,390 --> 01:06:20,359
yeah I don't know yeah it's really

1507
01:06:23,590 --> 01:06:21,400
interesting

1508
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:23,600
thanks yeah because you want to think of

1509
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:26,450
oh that's fine yep no problem thanks for

1510
01:06:31,390 --> 01:06:28,010
taking my call no no go ahead continue

1511
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:31,400
stirring to say some yeah head oh I was

1512
01:06:36,700 --> 01:06:34,250
just gonna make a last note here but we

1513
01:06:38,410 --> 01:06:36,710
often think of tea and we want to

1514
01:06:40,420 --> 01:06:38,420
project on to them that they must be

1515
01:06:42,099 --> 01:06:40,430
highly sophisticated of course from

1516
01:06:43,510 --> 01:06:42,109
traveling and that sort of thing so the

1517
01:06:45,940 --> 01:06:43,520
only think well why would they care

1518
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:45,950
about a cow or a dog

1519
01:06:49,030 --> 01:06:47,210
don't they already know everything there

1520
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:49,040
is to know about cows and dogs or

1521
01:06:52,960 --> 01:06:51,650
whatever cattle might have been taken so

1522
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:52,970
it really sort of

1523
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:55,130
it does drive a wedge intellectually

1524
01:07:00,070 --> 01:06:56,810
it's for me when I try to think about

1525
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:00,080
why would a sophisticated being wanna

1526
01:07:03,430 --> 01:07:01,730
why would they keep searching through

1527
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:03,440
them but I guess we have to imagine that

1528
01:07:07,150 --> 01:07:05,570
there's a lot of different species that

1529
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:07,160
were being visited by they have

1530
01:07:11,710 --> 01:07:10,010
different insurances and so on so but

1531
01:07:13,210 --> 01:07:11,720
yeah it's fast any stuff thanks for

1532
01:07:15,820 --> 01:07:13,220
taking my call I appreciate it all right

1533
01:07:19,300 --> 01:07:15,830
thank you for the call yeah thanks thank

1534
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:19,310
you so one of the things that I was

1535
01:07:23,349 --> 01:07:21,290
thinking about you've written about the

1536
01:07:24,940 --> 01:07:23,359
history of the mutual mistrust between

1537
01:07:28,270 --> 01:07:24,950
ufologist scientists and government

1538
01:07:31,660 --> 01:07:28,280
agencies can you tell where you think

1539
01:07:36,099 --> 01:07:31,670
this mistrust comes from yeah I mean

1540
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:36,109
it's there right we know it's there we

1541
01:07:41,290 --> 01:07:39,050
know it it played out in sometimes

1542
01:07:44,380 --> 01:07:41,300
rather serious ways right because we we

1543
01:07:48,730 --> 01:07:44,390
know historically from a very early

1544
01:07:52,510 --> 01:07:48,740
phase in in you know already in 1949 and

1545
01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:52,520
1950 right someone like Donald Kehoe the

1546
01:07:56,859 --> 01:07:54,770
who ends up of course being most well

1547
01:07:59,589 --> 01:07:56,869
known for not just his books but for

1548
01:08:03,060 --> 01:07:59,599
being the director of NICAP a big big

1549
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:03,070
national organization in the 50s and 60s

1550
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:06,050
already back then he's he's saying that

1551
01:08:10,750 --> 01:08:09,410
there's there's a lot of mistrust on the

1552
01:08:12,190 --> 01:08:10,760
part of government officials and

1553
01:08:15,370 --> 01:08:12,200
military officials of people like

1554
01:08:18,450 --> 01:08:15,380
himself and we also know that the

1555
01:08:20,740 --> 01:08:18,460
government actually did spy on UFO

1556
01:08:24,900 --> 01:08:20,750
researchers and organizations in the

1557
01:08:27,519 --> 01:08:24,910
1950s and 1960s so there's been a lot of

1558
01:08:29,979 --> 01:08:27,529
mutual mistrust all around in these

1559
01:08:34,260 --> 01:08:29,989
issues and I think a lot of it has to do

1560
01:08:37,300 --> 01:08:34,270
with in a sense I think of

1561
01:08:39,370 --> 01:08:37,310
misunderstanding of the motivations of a

1562
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:39,380
lot of the people involved i I think

1563
01:08:44,650 --> 01:08:42,410
that on the part of you know scientists

1564
01:08:47,709 --> 01:08:44,660
who are in the academic realm I think

1565
01:08:50,380 --> 01:08:47,719
they have historically viewed the

1566
01:08:53,380 --> 01:08:50,390
subject not just simply as kind of

1567
01:08:55,959 --> 01:08:53,390
frivolous and and and maybe even

1568
01:08:59,349 --> 01:08:55,969
downright for many of them silly but I

1569
01:09:01,630 --> 01:08:59,359
think they viewed the the people who did

1570
01:09:03,490 --> 01:09:01,640
UFO research and who are interested in

1571
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:03,500
this subject as people who are anti

1572
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:06,290
science people who are attacking

1573
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:09,410
science and have no patience for it and

1574
01:09:16,030 --> 01:09:13,730
want to basically embrace what they look

1575
01:09:18,940 --> 01:09:16,040
people like the D bunker in the 50s

1576
01:09:20,860 --> 01:09:18,950
Donald Menzel called superstition and I

1577
01:09:23,050 --> 01:09:20,870
think the reality is when you look at

1578
01:09:25,300 --> 01:09:23,060
the history of UFO research and the

1579
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:25,310
people who have been mostly interested

1580
01:09:30,430 --> 01:09:27,770
in this subject for the most part these

1581
01:09:32,470 --> 01:09:30,440
are excuse me these are people who

1582
01:09:35,260 --> 01:09:32,480
actually are really really interested in

1583
01:09:38,380 --> 01:09:35,270
science who are deeply in I think quite

1584
01:09:40,450 --> 01:09:38,390
well informed about science they're not

1585
01:09:42,460 --> 01:09:40,460
anti science at all I've very few people

1586
01:09:43,809 --> 01:09:42,470
I've met our anti science who are

1587
01:09:46,180 --> 01:09:43,819
interested I think it's just the

1588
01:09:50,410 --> 01:09:46,190
opposite and by the same measure I think

1589
01:09:53,650 --> 01:09:50,420
a lot of UFO enthusiasts and and people

1590
01:09:55,770 --> 01:09:53,660
who are UFO researchers have tended to

1591
01:09:58,690 --> 01:09:55,780
view the kind of skepticism of

1592
01:10:05,010 --> 01:09:58,700
scientists and people you know in my

1593
01:10:07,300 --> 01:10:05,020
kind of line of work as people who

1594
01:10:12,090 --> 01:10:07,310
dismiss these kinds of claims that

1595
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:12,100
people make because they just they view

1596
01:10:19,090 --> 01:10:14,690
witnesses and they view claimants as as

1597
01:10:20,530 --> 01:10:19,100
as dumb or stupid or or hoaxers or

1598
01:10:22,900 --> 01:10:20,540
things and I think that actually is

1599
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:22,910
quite wrong I think that in in fact a

1600
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:26,690
lot of a lot of people particularly by

1601
01:10:32,050 --> 01:10:30,170
the 1960s and 70s who are in the

1602
01:10:34,030 --> 01:10:32,060
academic field who look at this kind of

1603
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:34,040
stuff actually believe that most people

1604
01:10:38,110 --> 01:10:35,930
are being actually quite sincere and

1605
01:10:41,170 --> 01:10:38,120
that that witnesses are oftentimes

1606
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:41,180
seeing something that people are having

1607
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:44,090
experiences that are bewildering or

1608
01:10:49,510 --> 01:10:47,510
outright scary but that what they do is

1609
01:10:52,150 --> 01:10:49,520
they believe there might be all sorts of

1610
01:10:55,450 --> 01:10:52,160
other explanations that can help inform

1611
01:10:57,610 --> 01:10:55,460
that right so I think in a sense the

1612
01:11:00,160 --> 01:10:57,620
mutual mistrust comes from the fact that

1613
01:11:02,170 --> 01:11:00,170
that for lack of a better term what

1614
01:11:05,950 --> 01:11:02,180
often happens is people are talking past

1615
01:11:08,010 --> 01:11:05,960
one another that that it's actually an

1616
01:11:12,550 --> 01:11:08,020
inability to communicate effectively

1617
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:12,560
that is in large large part results in

1618
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:15,530
this kind of distrust that everybody has

1619
01:11:19,690 --> 01:11:17,930
for for the other side if you want to

1620
01:11:24,670 --> 01:11:19,700
put it that way yeah

1621
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:24,680
yeah interesting so as far as as far as

1622
01:11:29,380 --> 01:11:27,530
the someone had put a question up just

1623
01:11:32,050 --> 01:11:29,390
before we came back from the break and

1624
01:11:34,900 --> 01:11:32,060
what your thoughts were on like ancient

1625
01:11:38,170 --> 01:11:34,910
times you know so to speak ancient

1626
01:11:40,180 --> 01:11:38,180
aliens but you know I mean I've I have

1627
01:11:43,270 --> 01:11:40,190
thoughts on that myself

1628
01:11:46,030 --> 01:11:43,280
I just think weren't just a as far as a

1629
01:11:50,050 --> 01:11:46,040
human you know existence is just a small

1630
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:50,060
sliver of time you know for instance so

1631
01:11:56,830 --> 01:11:53,570
yeah so we haven't really talked much

1632
01:12:01,000 --> 01:11:56,840
about the actual alien topic its itself

1633
01:12:02,440 --> 01:12:01,010
but so do you want to just discuss what

1634
01:12:05,650 --> 01:12:02,450
your thoughts about like if we were

1635
01:12:09,130 --> 01:12:05,660
being visited were we being visited in

1636
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:09,140
ancient times as well yeah well I you

1637
01:12:14,170 --> 01:12:11,690
know I a former colleague of mine

1638
01:12:15,700 --> 01:12:14,180
actually did some research on this a guy

1639
01:12:17,230 --> 01:12:15,710
by the name of Garrett Fagan who

1640
01:12:21,430 --> 01:12:17,240
unfortunately passed away a few years

1641
01:12:23,260 --> 01:12:21,440
ago but in ancient Roman historian it

1642
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:23,270
had done some stuff on this and and you

1643
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:26,690
know his argument and and about this was

1644
01:12:31,870 --> 01:12:30,650
that when you look at this stuff is that

1645
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:31,880
it doesn't add up

1646
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:34,250
is that his argument and and a lot of

1647
01:12:40,660 --> 01:12:36,770
his collaborators in this project that

1648
01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:40,670
he worked on saying that by and large a

1649
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:43,490
lot of the kinds of arguments to be made

1650
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:48,770
about this involve incorrect uses of

1651
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:52,130
evidence ignoring other kinds of

1652
01:12:57,490 --> 01:12:54,770
evidence that's out there so that it

1653
01:12:59,290 --> 01:12:57,500
becomes a at best a kind of a

1654
01:13:02,860 --> 01:12:59,300
speculative kind of argument about

1655
01:13:05,830 --> 01:13:02,870
things I'm not an archaeologist so I'm

1656
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:05,840
never gonna claim to know about how

1657
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:09,170
archaeology sort of can sort of inform

1658
01:13:12,610 --> 01:13:11,410
us about this stuff I think to me he

1659
01:13:24,210 --> 01:13:12,620
what

1660
01:13:27,490 --> 01:13:24,220
notion of invoking aliens to understand

1661
01:13:29,320 --> 01:13:27,500
certain artifacts right the creation of

1662
01:13:31,780 --> 01:13:29,330
the pyramids for instance or or other

1663
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:31,790
kinds of things that that we consider

1664
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:33,290
remarkable or

1665
01:13:39,340 --> 01:13:35,810
jool right that date back to ancient

1666
01:13:44,740 --> 01:13:39,350
times um it innit

1667
01:13:47,470 --> 01:13:44,750
it is part of an argument that it hides

1668
01:13:49,690 --> 01:13:47,480
the kind of an assumption in it and that

1669
01:13:53,050 --> 01:13:49,700
working assumption is always of course

1670
01:13:56,500 --> 01:13:53,060
that that the aliens would come and

1671
01:13:57,910 --> 01:13:56,510
visit us have to be remarkably advanced

1672
01:14:00,370 --> 01:13:57,920
right the only way they could ever get

1673
01:14:02,290 --> 01:14:00,380
here and and to do the kinds of things

1674
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:02,300
that we still find impossible to do is

1675
01:14:05,290 --> 01:14:04,130
he human beings right we we still are

1676
01:14:08,290 --> 01:14:05,300
trying to figure out can we really get

1677
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:08,300
some Mart ready to make that work well

1678
01:14:14,010 --> 01:14:10,970
these beans would have to be so advanced

1679
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:14,020
that they would then of course be

1680
01:14:19,210 --> 01:14:16,970
responsible for in fact II grant eight

1681
01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:19,220
innovations in human history and I think

1682
01:14:24,070 --> 01:14:21,710
what some people would argue is what

1683
01:14:27,010 --> 01:14:24,080
that means is therefore it seems to be

1684
01:14:29,140 --> 01:14:27,020
in undervaluing of human beings aren't

1685
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:29,150
we a little more wily aren't we a little

1686
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:31,250
craftier than that some people would

1687
01:14:38,530 --> 01:14:34,490
argue can't we don't we show the ability

1688
01:14:40,420 --> 01:14:38,540
they - in fact these things innovate

1689
01:14:42,580 --> 01:14:40,430
develop advanced technologies in ways

1690
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:42,590
without the assistance of these beings

1691
01:14:46,810 --> 01:14:44,690
from another planet and so you kind of

1692
01:14:49,420 --> 01:14:46,820
get this interesting argument I think

1693
01:14:51,820 --> 01:14:49,430
it's sort of underneath all this that's

1694
01:14:54,190 --> 01:14:51,830
really about this question about what

1695
01:14:58,320 --> 01:14:54,200
our human being is really capable right

1696
01:15:02,140 --> 01:14:58,330
how how good are we at seen ourselves

1697
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:02,150
technologically in scientific hit at any

1698
01:15:05,440 --> 01:15:04,010
given period of time that's kind of what

1699
01:15:09,220 --> 01:15:05,450
I I find kind of entreating in those

1700
01:15:13,570 --> 01:15:09,230
discussions right Wow you know you know

1701
01:15:15,610 --> 01:15:13,580
as far as the the topic of one thing we

1702
01:15:19,630 --> 01:15:15,620
haven't we haven't really discussed much

1703
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:19,640
of and and that is you know and I'm

1704
01:15:24,730 --> 01:15:22,370
always the first to say that a UFO

1705
01:15:27,670 --> 01:15:24,740
doesn't necessarily mean that it's alien

1706
01:15:29,290 --> 01:15:27,680
you know I mean we expect I'm talking

1707
01:15:32,830 --> 01:15:29,300
about the you know UFOs that are

1708
01:15:36,790 --> 01:15:32,840
unexplainable no one as far as I know

1709
01:15:39,130 --> 01:15:36,800
really knows for sure but you seem to

1710
01:15:42,220 --> 01:15:39,140
have enough of an open mind to think

1711
01:15:45,850 --> 01:15:42,230
that it's a possibility as far as us

1712
01:15:46,839 --> 01:15:45,860
being visited alejandro mentioned

1713
01:15:49,449 --> 01:15:46,849
earlier on that i had

1714
01:15:52,509 --> 01:15:49,459
I had a debate a long time ago with Seth

1715
01:15:55,179 --> 01:15:52,519
Shostak from city and basically the

1716
01:15:57,879 --> 01:15:55,189
thought is you know the thinking in

1717
01:15:58,299 --> 01:15:57,889
human terms they can't get here from

1718
01:16:01,419 --> 01:15:58,309
there

1719
01:16:02,679 --> 01:16:01,429
you know and I remember asking him

1720
01:16:04,659 --> 01:16:02,689
something well maybe they figured

1721
01:16:06,459 --> 01:16:04,669
something out in physics that we have

1722
01:16:06,909 --> 01:16:06,469
not even touched upon yet or something

1723
01:16:09,699 --> 01:16:06,919
like that

1724
01:16:12,819 --> 01:16:09,709
he actually said well it's possible but

1725
01:16:14,919 --> 01:16:12,829
unlikely and so what are your thoughts

1726
01:16:16,449 --> 01:16:14,929
of you know the thing always comes up as

1727
01:16:18,580 --> 01:16:16,459
the distance thing what are your

1728
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:18,590
thoughts about that if we actually are

1729
01:16:25,239 --> 01:16:23,050
being visited by a distant intelligence

1730
01:16:28,810 --> 01:16:25,249
yeah I mean you know it's interesting

1731
01:16:32,229 --> 01:16:28,820
that you talk about what Seth Shostak

1732
01:16:36,609 --> 01:16:32,239
told you that that refrain is a refrain

1733
01:16:38,679 --> 01:16:36,619
I've seen also in in kind of in the

1734
01:16:41,529 --> 01:16:38,689
archival materials that I've looked at

1735
01:16:43,689 --> 01:16:41,539
surrounding the crowd who worked on SETI

1736
01:16:45,489 --> 01:16:43,699
sort of that original crowd and and the

1737
01:16:49,419 --> 01:16:45,499
people were working in the 70s and 80s

1738
01:16:51,699 --> 01:16:49,429
on it I year ago for instance I was

1739
01:16:54,459 --> 01:16:51,709
looking through Carl Sagan's papers in

1740
01:16:56,529 --> 01:16:54,469
Washington DC and and some of his

1741
01:16:59,469 --> 01:16:56,539
personal letters and things like that

1742
01:17:03,449 --> 01:16:59,479
and one of the things that I saw in

1743
01:17:05,889 --> 01:17:03,459
there that that struck me as as kind of

1744
01:17:09,339 --> 01:17:05,899
reflected my own sort of take on things

1745
01:17:13,569 --> 01:17:09,349
was some correspondence TV was talking

1746
01:17:15,159 --> 01:17:13,579
with Oana Walden SETI so this is not

1747
01:17:17,429 --> 01:17:15,169
them talking in public and they were

1748
01:17:22,929 --> 01:17:17,439
both saying to one another basically

1749
01:17:24,279 --> 01:17:22,939
look I don't see any kind of reason at

1750
01:17:27,310 --> 01:17:24,289
this stage with the evidence we have

1751
01:17:29,949 --> 01:17:27,320
that allows me to sort of say in any any

1752
01:17:31,599 --> 01:17:29,959
with any kind of certainty that that

1753
01:17:36,759 --> 01:17:31,609
this is happening or that this has

1754
01:17:39,790 --> 01:17:36,769
happened but if one day it happens it

1755
01:17:42,069 --> 01:17:39,800
will it won't surprise me if we find the

1756
01:17:44,229 --> 01:17:42,079
evidence or if one day it happens it

1757
01:17:46,509 --> 01:17:44,239
wouldn't surprise me and that's kind of

1758
01:17:48,909 --> 01:17:46,519
the attitude that they had about it

1759
01:17:51,639 --> 01:17:48,919
right I think we sometimes remember

1760
01:17:53,469 --> 01:17:51,649
people like Carl Sagan and as the the

1761
01:17:55,389 --> 01:17:53,479
great debunk or I I don't know if that's

1762
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:55,399
your impression but you know he was kind

1763
01:17:59,439 --> 01:17:57,530
of a little more open-minded about these

1764
01:18:00,729 --> 01:17:59,449
things than he's often given credit I

1765
01:18:02,350 --> 01:18:00,739
know what do you what do you hear

1766
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:02,360
take well saying things and that there

1767
01:18:07,330 --> 01:18:04,730
is a paper that he wrote in the 60s

1768
01:18:08,770 --> 01:18:07,340
where he actually was saying there's a

1769
01:18:11,950 --> 01:18:08,780
probability I don't know if you've ever

1770
01:18:15,100 --> 01:18:11,960
stumbled across that I don't that one

1771
01:18:18,129 --> 01:18:15,110
now yeah but also there is a there was a

1772
01:18:21,879 --> 01:18:18,139
story now I I don't know how you know

1773
01:18:24,189 --> 01:18:21,889
solid this story is but a he was on

1774
01:18:25,839 --> 01:18:24,199
stage with I don't want to say with Stan

1775
01:18:29,009 --> 01:18:25,849
Freeman but someone that was around for

1776
01:18:32,319 --> 01:18:29,019
a long time and they had a quiet

1777
01:18:34,330 --> 01:18:32,329
conversation supposedly and he basically

1778
01:18:36,370 --> 01:18:34,340
said well I think a lot more about it

1779
01:18:38,350 --> 01:18:36,380
than I ever talk about it and those

1780
01:18:39,729 --> 01:18:38,360
words up he said it and I will never

1781
01:18:41,500 --> 01:18:39,739
catch me talking about it

1782
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:41,510
you know so he's afraid it was a career

1783
01:18:49,060 --> 01:18:45,050
killer obviously yeah yeah well I you

1784
01:18:50,890 --> 01:18:49,070
know I've looked at some of this

1785
01:18:53,709 --> 01:18:50,900
material particularly the 60s when he

1786
01:18:55,359 --> 01:18:53,719
was just really fresh he was agree he

1787
01:18:58,330 --> 01:18:55,369
was a greenhorn at that stage of his

1788
01:19:00,220 --> 01:18:58,340
career in the late 60s and I've seen his

1789
01:19:01,959 --> 01:19:00,230
interactions with some of the older

1790
01:19:05,140 --> 01:19:01,969
colleagues who were physicists and

1791
01:19:08,109 --> 01:19:05,150
astronomers and a lot of them were very

1792
01:19:10,270 --> 01:19:08,119
upset with the way in which he was

1793
01:19:13,060 --> 01:19:10,280
willing to engage in discussions with

1794
01:19:14,350 --> 01:19:13,070
UFO researchers and I still remember one

1795
01:19:17,140 --> 01:19:14,360
letter he had in exchange with one

1796
01:19:20,080 --> 01:19:17,150
Harvard astronomer who's basically said

1797
01:19:22,629 --> 01:19:20,090
I'm paraphrasing now Carl stop doing

1798
01:19:24,220 --> 01:19:22,639
this it's gonna kill your career you're

1799
01:19:26,229 --> 01:19:24,230
never you're never gonna get a good

1800
01:19:28,089 --> 01:19:26,239
serious job if you keep doing this

1801
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:28,099
you're looking ridiculous and his

1802
01:19:33,790 --> 01:19:31,610
response was I believe in dialogue I

1803
01:19:36,580 --> 01:19:33,800
believe in conversation and it's one of

1804
01:19:39,609 --> 01:19:36,590
the things I really respect about Sagan

1805
01:19:41,649 --> 01:19:39,619
was he was always interested in the idea

1806
01:19:43,779 --> 01:19:41,659
that we don't shut down conversation we

1807
01:19:46,899 --> 01:19:43,789
open up conversation I think that kind

1808
01:19:48,459 --> 01:19:46,909
of reflects my own sort of ethos yeah if

1809
01:19:49,989 --> 01:19:48,469
I have some time I could jump on the

1810
01:19:51,700 --> 01:19:49,999
computer and try to find that article I

1811
01:19:53,620 --> 01:19:51,710
I think I've been to the link to it on

1812
01:19:56,919 --> 01:19:53,630
my website at one time but it was

1813
01:20:00,180 --> 01:19:56,929
surprising and yeah and it's too bad

1814
01:20:03,910 --> 01:20:00,190
that it is actually a career killer for

1815
01:20:05,709 --> 01:20:03,920
for you know a lot of people and one of

1816
01:20:07,839 --> 01:20:05,719
the questions I had a scientist on one

1817
01:20:10,509 --> 01:20:07,849
time and and I said why do I asked him

1818
01:20:13,330 --> 01:20:10,519
point-blank why do you think it is so

1819
01:20:14,620 --> 01:20:13,340
hard on someone's career and and no one

1820
01:20:16,540 --> 01:20:14,630
can get funding for it

1821
01:20:18,790 --> 01:20:16,550
and he said kind of like what you

1822
01:20:21,250 --> 01:20:18,800
addressed about said he said people want

1823
01:20:24,129 --> 01:20:21,260
results and if there can't be an endgame

1824
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:24,139
where there's a result they're not gonna

1825
01:20:27,490 --> 01:20:26,090
they're not gonna you know put up some

1826
01:20:29,770 --> 01:20:27,500
money for it which is surprising that

1827
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:29,780
said he actually you know keeps getting

1828
01:20:33,430 --> 01:20:31,610
funded private funding actually you know

1829
01:20:38,830 --> 01:20:33,440
for most of it right now

1830
01:20:40,930 --> 01:20:38,840
yeah right right now I mean and malong

1831
01:20:43,540 --> 01:20:40,940
now again what's kind of intriguing is

1832
01:20:45,220 --> 01:20:43,550
you look at my research and you have to

1833
01:20:48,970 --> 01:20:45,230
say well this is interesting I've had

1834
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:48,980
I've had a lot of the more senior UFO

1835
01:20:53,770 --> 01:20:51,530
researchers out there say to me I had

1836
01:20:58,120 --> 01:20:53,780
one I had one who will remain nameless

1837
01:21:00,459 --> 01:20:58,130
who said to me Greg does the Smithsonian

1838
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:00,469
know exactly what your research is about

1839
01:21:05,140 --> 01:21:02,810
oh yeah yeah I said I said yeah oh yeah

1840
01:21:07,930 --> 01:21:05,150
I said yeah I've got NASA funding for

1841
01:21:12,100 --> 01:21:07,940
this stuff I mean and and I think the

1842
01:21:16,319 --> 01:21:12,110
reason why is because I don't think this

1843
01:21:19,450 --> 01:21:16,329
stuff any longer has the same kind of

1844
01:21:22,540 --> 01:21:19,460
stigma it had attached to it back in

1845
01:21:24,580 --> 01:21:22,550
again I think the 70s and 80s when it

1846
01:21:28,089 --> 01:21:24,590
was I think a lot of this stuff was

1847
01:21:31,589 --> 01:21:28,099
viewed as you know the enemy as I say as

1848
01:21:34,810 --> 01:21:31,599
a kind of a the enemy of good science

1849
01:21:36,700 --> 01:21:34,820
but I think the other part of it is I am

1850
01:21:40,030 --> 01:21:36,710
a historian I do approach this stuff

1851
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:40,040
historically I'm not in the business of

1852
01:21:47,109 --> 01:21:43,610
as I say telling people what to think

1853
01:21:49,479 --> 01:21:47,119
about whether things are have alien

1854
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,489
origins or sources to them or not I'm

1855
01:21:55,419 --> 01:21:51,679
not in the business also of spending my

1856
01:21:57,819 --> 01:21:55,429
time debunking claims my job and my role

1857
01:22:01,180 --> 01:21:57,829
is something different right in a sense

1858
01:22:03,550 --> 01:22:01,190
it's it's far more modest than any of

1859
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:03,560
those things are in that I'm just trying

1860
01:22:09,850 --> 01:22:07,130
to capture and recover how it is that

1861
01:22:12,490 --> 01:22:09,860
people have gone about understanding and

1862
01:22:14,919 --> 01:22:12,500
making sense of this over time as I tell

1863
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:14,929
people I research the researchers that's

1864
01:22:20,530 --> 01:22:17,810
kind of what I do I'm interested in that

1865
01:22:23,830 --> 01:22:20,540
kind of that kind of question and so I

1866
01:22:26,770 --> 01:22:23,840
think in that sense it's seen as quite

1867
01:22:28,419 --> 01:22:26,780
legitimate to ask questions about what

1868
01:22:31,270 --> 01:22:28,429
as I have argued in my

1869
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:31,280
research is really one of the one of the

1870
01:22:38,020 --> 01:22:36,050
most impressive global movements of the

1871
01:22:40,239 --> 01:22:38,030
late 20th century and that one that's

1872
01:22:42,759 --> 01:22:40,249
been basically neglected by so many

1873
01:22:44,500 --> 01:22:42,769
people in my field right that to me is

1874
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:44,510
kind of intriguing and I think that's

1875
01:22:50,549 --> 01:22:48,050
what I think is the reason why now a lot

1876
01:22:54,279 --> 01:22:50,559
of these institutions don't see this as

1877
01:22:57,009 --> 01:22:54,289
problematic as a problematic field to

1878
01:22:58,779 --> 01:22:57,019
sort of get into and to look at I did

1879
01:23:01,299 --> 01:22:58,789
have my notes I did want to ask you how

1880
01:23:04,810 --> 01:23:01,309
did you go about getting funding from

1881
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:04,820
the Smithsonian and NASA yeah well I I

1882
01:23:09,370 --> 01:23:07,610
started going into these you know once I

1883
01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:09,380
got into this project and I started to

1884
01:23:14,709 --> 01:23:11,360
make the determination that I wanted to

1885
01:23:16,929 --> 01:23:14,719
pursue this as a book I knew I was going

1886
01:23:18,939 --> 01:23:16,939
to need funding to do this this this

1887
01:23:21,129 --> 01:23:18,949
this is a huge prize

1888
01:23:23,169 --> 01:23:21,139
how else do am I gonna get overseas to

1889
01:23:25,390 --> 01:23:23,179
Sweden and work with those fabulous

1890
01:23:27,819 --> 01:23:25,400
people over at the archives for the

1891
01:23:30,939 --> 01:23:27,829
unexplained and to Italy and places like

1892
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:30,949
that it was gonna take a lot of time it

1893
01:23:35,649 --> 01:23:33,530
was gonna take a lot of effort for me to

1894
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:35,659
get and to do the traveling I needed to

1895
01:23:39,879 --> 01:23:38,090
do so I knew I was gonna need funding

1896
01:23:44,949 --> 01:23:39,889
and then it was for me a question of now

1897
01:23:47,259 --> 01:23:44,959
where do I go for those those kinds of

1898
01:23:49,419 --> 01:23:47,269
funds who were the likely places to do

1899
01:23:52,209 --> 01:23:49,429
that and for that it's going to be the

1900
01:23:54,250 --> 01:23:52,219
kind of institutions that fund history

1901
01:23:57,399 --> 01:23:54,260
of science the kind of stuff that I've

1902
01:23:59,649 --> 01:23:57,409
done over the years but so the first

1903
01:24:00,870 --> 01:23:59,659
place I actually turned to was to go

1904
01:24:03,729 --> 01:24:00,880
look at the American Philosophical

1905
01:24:06,069 --> 01:24:03,739
Society in Philadelphia who really

1906
01:24:07,209 --> 01:24:06,079
offered me my first grant possibilities

1907
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:07,219
because there I wanted to work with

1908
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:09,170
their collections and there's where they

1909
01:24:14,199 --> 01:24:12,050
have Edward Condon's papers they have

1910
01:24:16,660 --> 01:24:14,209
phil cloths the great the bunker fill

1911
01:24:20,049 --> 01:24:16,670
classes papers Donald Menzel and other

1912
01:24:22,750 --> 01:24:20,059
the great sort of debunkers of the 1950s

1913
01:24:25,209 --> 01:24:22,760
and 60s and from there that off afforded

1914
01:24:27,669 --> 01:24:25,219
me the possibility to say to then other

1915
01:24:30,310 --> 01:24:27,679
funders well look I I'm very serious

1916
01:24:31,660 --> 01:24:30,320
about this stuff I've got I've started

1917
01:24:33,759 --> 01:24:31,670
to publish the results of my research

1918
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:33,769
but to really finish this I need other

1919
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:37,760
possibilities and so that's when I got

1920
01:24:42,459 --> 01:24:40,610
involved and and applied for some funds

1921
01:24:44,770 --> 01:24:42,469
through the American Historical is

1922
01:24:48,310 --> 01:24:44,780
Association and this NASA grant and then

1923
01:24:52,930 --> 01:24:48,320
I had the great opportunity to be to

1924
01:24:55,239 --> 01:24:52,940
serve as the Charles a Limburg chair in

1925
01:24:58,870 --> 01:24:55,249
aerospace history over at the National

1926
01:25:01,359 --> 01:24:58,880
Air and Space Museum last fall this at

1927
01:25:03,729 --> 01:25:01,369
the Smithsonian and so there because I

1928
01:25:05,739 --> 01:25:03,739
had gotten to know some of the great

1929
01:25:07,660 --> 01:25:05,749
aerospace historians that are there I

1930
01:25:10,689 --> 01:25:07,670
mean is there another place in the world

1931
01:25:13,709 --> 01:25:10,699
that have so many of these fabulous

1932
01:25:16,239 --> 01:25:13,719
people who do aerospace history so

1933
01:25:18,189 --> 01:25:16,249
because I made those connections and

1934
01:25:20,799 --> 01:25:18,199
showed people the way in which I want to

1935
01:25:23,379 --> 01:25:20,809
approach this subject and think about it

1936
01:25:27,100 --> 01:25:23,389
all along the way I've had nothing but

1937
01:25:29,950 --> 01:25:27,110
people encourage me give me support open

1938
01:25:31,540 --> 01:25:29,960
up their their you know their time to me

1939
01:25:34,060 --> 01:25:31,550
and give me you know let me sit there

1940
01:25:35,950 --> 01:25:34,070
and and not just talk their ears off but

1941
01:25:38,140 --> 01:25:35,960
also get advice from them about how to

1942
01:25:40,180 --> 01:25:38,150
go about doing some of the things I'm

1943
01:25:43,419 --> 01:25:40,190
doing it's just been absolutely

1944
01:25:46,870 --> 01:25:43,429
remarkable so I I have felt like from my

1945
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:46,880
standpoint doors have opened I get open

1946
01:25:52,299 --> 01:25:50,090
doors from people and people share their

1947
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:52,309
time and their their their wisdom with

1948
01:25:56,290 --> 01:25:54,050
me all along the way and that's from all

1949
01:25:58,719 --> 01:25:56,300
sides frankly from everybody I've

1950
01:26:01,660 --> 01:25:58,729
encountered I've really had a door shut

1951
01:26:05,009 --> 01:26:01,670
in my face do you think it that you have

1952
01:26:09,219 --> 01:26:05,019
a pretty good advantage because of your

1953
01:26:12,219 --> 01:26:09,229
your status as a professor of history -

1954
01:26:16,379 --> 01:26:12,229
yeah I think yeah I think that's

1955
01:26:21,310 --> 01:26:16,389
absolutely the case I have told people

1956
01:26:25,029 --> 01:26:21,320
that I don't know that I would have

1957
01:26:29,319 --> 01:26:25,039
undertaken this project say I don't know

1958
01:26:31,660 --> 01:26:29,329
20 25 years ago in my career I think I

1959
01:26:34,750 --> 01:26:31,670
might have been nervous about would

1960
01:26:36,910 --> 01:26:34,760
people take me seriously would they

1961
01:26:40,299 --> 01:26:36,920
wonder about what I'm up to or something

1962
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:40,309
like that but I I in you know in the in

1963
01:26:45,629 --> 01:26:42,650
that period of time I've taken on so

1964
01:26:48,459 --> 01:26:45,639
many other projects that that that have

1965
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:48,469
taken me in in completely other

1966
01:26:54,219 --> 01:26:51,530
different avenues as you well know and

1967
01:26:56,450 --> 01:26:54,229
the thing is about it two things one is

1968
01:26:58,729 --> 01:26:56,460
that is that is that in

1969
01:27:01,820 --> 01:26:58,739
doing so I've picked up all sorts of

1970
01:27:03,709 --> 01:27:01,830
skills right and and research skills and

1971
01:27:06,350 --> 01:27:03,719
an ability to look at an archive in a

1972
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:06,360
way that I didn't have 25 years ago so

1973
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:11,010
part of it is I IIE

1974
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:16,530
I chin where people know that I know how

1975
01:27:21,440 --> 01:27:18,570
to go about and do rigorous empirical

1976
01:27:23,420 --> 01:27:21,450
research right historical research but

1977
01:27:25,670 --> 01:27:23,430
the other part of it is having earned a

1978
01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:25,680
reputation from my colleagues and from

1979
01:27:29,390 --> 01:27:27,510
people who work in the history of

1980
01:27:33,020 --> 01:27:29,400
science and medicine who know me and

1981
01:27:35,750 --> 01:27:33,030
know the kind of ways I go about doing

1982
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:35,760
things and and how I do it in a really

1983
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:40,320
serious sober fashion I think it in that

1984
01:27:47,060 --> 01:27:44,610
sense one's reputation not just having

1985
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:47,070
the name professor of history you know

1986
01:27:51,860 --> 01:27:48,930
as part of your title but having that

1987
01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:51,870
background that experience having proven

1988
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,170
myself you know over many years that I

1989
01:28:00,530 --> 01:27:56,880
think is what really matters to people

1990
01:28:03,410 --> 01:28:00,540
and that it that that's okay and that's

1991
01:28:05,450 --> 01:28:03,420
and that has both served me well both in

1992
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:05,460
terms of opening doors but also oh in

1993
01:28:09,350 --> 01:28:07,410
terms of helping me take advantage when

1994
01:28:11,420 --> 01:28:09,360
people open the door I know what to do

1995
01:28:13,970 --> 01:28:11,430
once those doors have been opened right

1996
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:13,980
well being in the digital age you know

1997
01:28:18,650 --> 01:28:16,530
you talked about earlier how you know

1998
01:28:21,110 --> 01:28:18,660
there's the paper trail basically of of

1999
01:28:21,830 --> 01:28:21,120
UFO researchers now it's everything's

2000
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:21,840
digital

2001
01:28:25,700 --> 01:28:23,610
do you think that's gonna change the

2002
01:28:29,690 --> 01:28:25,710
landscape as far as research in the

2003
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:29,700
future yeah I think so

2004
01:28:36,140 --> 01:28:32,730
oh I think no question about it that the

2005
01:28:39,470 --> 01:28:36,150
Act the accessibility to so many records

2006
01:28:42,530 --> 01:28:39,480
to so many things means that just about

2007
01:28:44,450 --> 01:28:42,540
anybody can take this stuff on and and

2008
01:28:47,450 --> 01:28:44,460
wrap their heads around it pretty

2009
01:28:50,570 --> 01:28:47,460
quickly now it also means however that

2010
01:28:53,030 --> 01:28:50,580
what the digital age is also done is is

2011
01:28:56,660 --> 01:28:53,040
where we all are I think painfully aware

2012
01:28:59,930 --> 01:28:56,670
right is that it's created a kind of a

2013
01:29:00,610 --> 01:28:59,940
flood of information and data like where

2014
01:29:03,170 --> 01:29:00,620
do you begin

2015
01:29:04,459 --> 01:29:03,180
I'm sure you've experienced this

2016
01:29:06,979 --> 01:29:04,469
whenever you want it to go in maybe and

2017
01:29:09,700 --> 01:29:06,989
look it's something I said to my

2018
01:29:11,440 --> 01:29:09,710
yourself oh my god like we're

2019
01:29:14,440 --> 01:29:11,450
where do I begin and also where and when

2020
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:14,450
do I stop because it's and so much yeah

2021
01:29:19,540 --> 01:29:16,610
it's the truth and where's where's the

2022
01:29:21,610 --> 01:29:19,550
untruth and yeah and when it comes to

2023
01:29:24,220 --> 01:29:21,620
places like YouTube you know what

2024
01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:24,230
percentage of the you know videos can

2025
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:27,410
you actually consider that or yeah

2026
01:29:34,060 --> 01:29:31,850
something yeah and it it is a big

2027
01:29:37,330 --> 01:29:34,070
problem because I think there there

2028
01:29:39,340 --> 01:29:37,340
there is reason to be to question you

2029
01:29:43,390 --> 01:29:39,350
know this is this to me is also very

2030
01:29:44,740 --> 01:29:43,400
much a part of my professional and even

2031
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:44,750
personal but but certainly my

2032
01:29:51,459 --> 01:29:48,050
professional code or ethos right is you

2033
01:29:53,709 --> 01:29:51,469
always have to be skeptical about your

2034
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:53,719
sources of information it it doesn't

2035
01:29:58,750 --> 01:29:56,690
mean you inherently don't believe it but

2036
01:30:00,760 --> 01:29:58,760
what you have to always be asking

2037
01:30:04,540 --> 01:30:00,770
yourself is where does this come from

2038
01:30:07,090 --> 01:30:04,550
who designed it for what purposes why is

2039
01:30:09,700 --> 01:30:07,100
it there how did it get there right

2040
01:30:12,580 --> 01:30:09,710
those are the questions we I I would do

2041
01:30:14,470 --> 01:30:12,590
this if I was studying a completely

2042
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:14,480
other kind of subject matter these are

2043
01:30:18,490 --> 01:30:16,480
the things that you have to do is

2044
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:18,500
anybody doing serious historical

2045
01:30:25,180 --> 01:30:21,650
research is always always be questioning

2046
01:30:27,130 --> 01:30:25,190
the material and and triangulating right

2047
01:30:29,530 --> 01:30:27,140
constantly saying do I get confirmation

2048
01:30:32,110 --> 01:30:29,540
of this information from other places

2049
01:30:34,410 --> 01:30:32,120
that will allow me to say with relative

2050
01:30:37,090 --> 01:30:34,420
certainty ah this document is

2051
01:30:39,100 --> 01:30:37,100
trustworthy or this document has some

2052
01:30:41,709 --> 01:30:39,110
problems right that kind of stuff is

2053
01:30:44,380 --> 01:30:41,719
necessary and you're right the internet

2054
01:30:46,720 --> 01:30:44,390
doesn't always make that easier it

2055
01:30:48,660 --> 01:30:46,730
actually oftentimes makes it more

2056
01:30:51,490 --> 01:30:48,670
complex more difficult to do right

2057
01:30:53,500 --> 01:30:51,500
because there's so much of this

2058
01:30:55,330 --> 01:30:53,510
information and a lot of times it can be

2059
01:30:58,060 --> 01:30:55,340
kind of mutually contradictory right

2060
01:31:03,820 --> 01:30:58,070
yeah a muddied the water so to speak

2061
01:31:08,440 --> 01:31:03,830
yeah yeah so as far as a as far as the

2062
01:31:11,680 --> 01:31:08,450
history of do you consider that a pop

2063
01:31:15,130 --> 01:31:11,690
culture plays a part in you know people

2064
01:31:16,870 --> 01:31:15,140
paying attention to I mean I saw the the

2065
01:31:20,650 --> 01:31:16,880
great article you had written the blog

2066
01:31:22,959 --> 01:31:20,660
on comic book covers so do you think

2067
01:31:25,209 --> 01:31:22,969
that played a part in

2068
01:31:30,189 --> 01:31:25,219
and what people thought they were seeing

2069
01:31:33,189 --> 01:31:30,199
or any part of that yeah I mean I I

2070
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:33,199
think big I think we have to say that

2071
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:36,410
pop culture and the media has always had

2072
01:31:43,689 --> 01:31:41,210
a a a pretty pronounced influence on

2073
01:31:46,150 --> 01:31:43,699
what's going on and what people are

2074
01:31:48,490 --> 01:31:46,160
seeing what people are talking about and

2075
01:31:50,709 --> 01:31:48,500
and these kinds of things

2076
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:50,719
it goes back to to some extent what we

2077
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:53,330
were talking about out early here the

2078
01:32:00,970 --> 01:31:55,130
that if you look at the history of

2079
01:32:05,290 --> 01:32:00,980
ufology that by and large the way in

2080
01:32:08,590 --> 01:32:05,300
which the UFO researchers have tried to

2081
01:32:10,570 --> 01:32:08,600
get their message across and reach

2082
01:32:12,490 --> 01:32:10,580
people and to get people to take him

2083
01:32:13,780 --> 01:32:12,500
seriously has been publicizing this

2084
01:32:17,020 --> 01:32:13,790
stuff and getting people's public

2085
01:32:19,660 --> 01:32:17,030
attention but we also know when you do

2086
01:32:21,550 --> 01:32:19,670
the research you find out that that

2087
01:32:24,880 --> 01:32:21,560
dating back already to the 1950s

2088
01:32:28,090 --> 01:32:24,890
what what what most UFO researchers did

2089
01:32:31,300 --> 01:32:28,100
back in the 50s 60s and 70s into the

2090
01:32:33,479 --> 01:32:31,310
1980s to get their information that they

2091
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:33,489
would then utilize just to analyze

2092
01:32:39,550 --> 01:32:37,010
material right and to analyze data was

2093
01:32:41,229 --> 01:32:39,560
to in fact track new news stories to

2094
01:32:43,689 --> 01:32:41,239
track newspapers they all had news

2095
01:32:47,170 --> 01:32:43,699
clippings files so so it's directly

2096
01:32:50,410 --> 01:32:47,180
having an impact that in that way on UFO

2097
01:32:53,050 --> 01:32:50,420
researchers but we certainly know that

2098
01:32:57,330 --> 01:32:53,060
that certain images right certain kinds

2099
01:33:00,700 --> 01:32:57,340
of ideas that we have in our minds about

2100
01:33:03,670 --> 01:33:00,710
aliens for instance comes to and is

2101
01:33:07,030 --> 01:33:03,680
derived from these sort of popular

2102
01:33:09,370 --> 01:33:07,040
images we have out there so if you were

2103
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:09,380
to ask people to describe what they

2104
01:33:14,890 --> 01:33:11,690
thought aliens and what people reported

2105
01:33:16,650 --> 01:33:14,900
aliens look like say in the 1950s when

2106
01:33:19,240 --> 01:33:16,660
the contact these were telling stories

2107
01:33:20,530 --> 01:33:19,250
they were very very different kinds of

2108
01:33:22,660 --> 01:33:20,540
descriptions than the things you're

2109
01:33:25,390 --> 01:33:22,670
gonna get when you ask people in 1990s

2110
01:33:28,689 --> 01:33:25,400
what they look like and a lot of that

2111
01:33:31,810 --> 01:33:28,699
has to do with the ways in which popular

2112
01:33:33,700 --> 01:33:31,820
culture sort of portrayed aliens whether

2113
01:33:35,500 --> 01:33:33,710
that was in movies or whether that was

2114
01:33:36,580 --> 01:33:35,510
in the popular press or the tabloid

2115
01:33:38,260 --> 01:33:36,590
press and

2116
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:38,270
has an impact and so I think you can

2117
01:33:44,530 --> 01:33:41,330
track that as part of the way in which

2118
01:33:46,959 --> 01:33:44,540
the general public as a whole sort of

2119
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:46,969
think about and try to understand these

2120
01:33:55,030 --> 01:33:50,510
kinds of things now as far as

2121
01:33:57,100 --> 01:33:55,040
historically the identification of what

2122
01:33:58,990 --> 01:33:57,110
people are seeing I want to talk a

2123
01:34:00,790 --> 01:33:59,000
little bit about that because there are

2124
01:34:03,370 --> 01:34:00,800
cases that do go way back about

2125
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:03,380
triangles again Dave Marla as a person

2126
01:34:09,939 --> 01:34:05,810
who is gonna be talking about that

2127
01:34:12,070 --> 01:34:09,949
coming up soon in a show but so

2128
01:34:14,229 --> 01:34:12,080
triangles so were very rare but they

2129
01:34:17,260 --> 01:34:14,239
there were a few sightings and then

2130
01:34:21,070 --> 01:34:17,270
there was the the disc the cigar shape

2131
01:34:23,740 --> 01:34:21,080
all that I think it's it's pretty

2132
01:34:26,229 --> 01:34:23,750
amazing now it seems like there's some

2133
01:34:28,959 --> 01:34:26,239
more triangle sightings than than

2134
01:34:32,740 --> 01:34:28,969
anything else and you know how could you

2135
01:34:34,330 --> 01:34:32,750
know again talking about you know these

2136
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:34,340
aren't new models that are coming up

2137
01:34:38,950 --> 01:34:35,810
obviously you know or something like

2138
01:34:41,399 --> 01:34:38,960
that did you ever look into any aspects

2139
01:34:43,870 --> 01:34:41,409
of the shapes of what people are seeing

2140
01:34:46,089 --> 01:34:43,880
yeah yeah I have actually

2141
01:34:48,339 --> 01:34:46,099
I mean so one of the one of the things

2142
01:34:51,189 --> 01:34:48,349
that's kind of intriguing is there too

2143
01:34:53,740 --> 01:34:51,199
you see in kind of the stories that

2144
01:34:55,930 --> 01:34:53,750
circulate right and that's where that's

2145
01:34:58,209 --> 01:34:55,940
what a lot of the stuff I focus on

2146
01:35:00,160 --> 01:34:58,219
because we are when we go to earlier

2147
01:35:02,379 --> 01:35:00,170
periods we often don't even have direct

2148
01:35:05,350 --> 01:35:02,389
witness testimony we have stories that

2149
01:35:09,399 --> 01:35:05,360
circulate in the media but if you take a

2150
01:35:11,740 --> 01:35:09,409
look at for instance some of the

2151
01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:11,750
earliest in the 19th century some of the

2152
01:35:17,890 --> 01:35:16,250
earliest stories about strange as they

2153
01:35:20,109 --> 01:35:17,900
would call them back in the day strange

2154
01:35:22,629 --> 01:35:20,119
airships right that that people have

2155
01:35:25,109 --> 01:35:22,639
witnessed it's really interesting how

2156
01:35:27,609 --> 01:35:25,119
this stuff tends to track and follow

2157
01:35:31,810 --> 01:35:27,619
whatever the technologies of the time

2158
01:35:35,470 --> 01:35:31,820
were so excuse me so for instance one of

2159
01:35:37,979 --> 01:35:35,480
the earliest earliest cases that was

2160
01:35:41,109 --> 01:35:37,989
brought to my attention by a his a

2161
01:35:44,830 --> 01:35:41,119
colleague of mine was a story from the

2162
01:35:49,000 --> 01:35:44,840
1830s that took place and I want to say

2163
01:35:53,470 --> 01:35:49,010
Ohio or Indiana among

2164
01:35:56,859 --> 01:35:53,480
a group of Mormons who had had had seen

2165
01:35:58,419 --> 01:35:56,869
who claimed that they had seen her maybe

2166
01:36:04,330 --> 01:35:58,429
it was later in any event what they

2167
01:36:07,299 --> 01:36:04,340
claim to have seen was a strange airship

2168
01:36:09,430 --> 01:36:07,309
with all sorts of family members dead

2169
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:09,440
family members on it but the way the

2170
01:36:13,839 --> 01:36:11,690
airship was described was it looked like

2171
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:13,849
a steamboat right because the steam

2172
01:36:17,589 --> 01:36:16,250
engine was the thing that people saw in

2173
01:36:19,779 --> 01:36:17,599
those days and that was what you

2174
01:36:22,779 --> 01:36:19,789
witnessed so airships are described as

2175
01:36:26,140 --> 01:36:22,789
looking like steamboats right in running

2176
01:36:28,750 --> 01:36:26,150
around on the skies fast forward many

2177
01:36:30,850 --> 01:36:28,760
decades later you get around the turn of

2178
01:36:33,879 --> 01:36:30,860
the century around right before World

2179
01:36:36,669 --> 01:36:33,889
War one when there are several kinds of

2180
01:36:39,279 --> 01:36:36,679
scares that go on particularly in

2181
01:36:41,020 --> 01:36:39,289
Britain what do people say that they see

2182
01:36:43,660 --> 01:36:41,030
they say they see Zeppelin's

2183
01:36:45,580 --> 01:36:43,670
and they describe dirigible like kinds

2184
01:36:47,410 --> 01:36:45,590
of things that are going around and so

2185
01:36:49,029 --> 01:36:47,420
the same thing that's kind of

2186
01:36:51,790 --> 01:36:49,039
interesting when you talk about the

2187
01:36:55,149 --> 01:36:51,800
ghost rockets scare in Sweden in 1946

2188
01:36:56,950 --> 01:36:55,159
um it's not just Rockets a bitter scene

2189
01:37:00,220 --> 01:36:56,960
as you probably know other things are

2190
01:37:01,660 --> 01:37:00,230
also seen but but rockets is the pockets

2191
01:37:04,209 --> 01:37:01,670
and missiles are the things that are

2192
01:37:07,419 --> 01:37:04,219
most described wrong in the links that's

2193
01:37:13,589 --> 01:37:07,429
what makes yeah it's fascinating stuff

2194
01:37:17,950 --> 01:37:16,089
number of very very well publicized

2195
01:37:22,799 --> 01:37:17,960
famous incidents during work knew in

2196
01:37:26,529 --> 01:37:22,809
which v1 and v2 rockets fell on Sweden

2197
01:37:30,250 --> 01:37:26,539
yeah yeah that never never thought of

2198
01:37:33,669 --> 01:37:30,260
that we have a Skype freeze up here but

2199
01:37:35,290 --> 01:37:33,679
we'll continue going here so I

2200
01:37:38,140 --> 01:37:35,300
understand that you have a you have a

2201
01:37:42,729 --> 01:37:38,150
movie that you're working on I did read

2202
01:37:45,850 --> 01:37:42,739
something is that is that so looks like

2203
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:45,860
his skype went out and hang on everyone

2204
01:37:50,560 --> 01:37:48,170
let me try to get him back on the show

2205
01:37:55,569 --> 01:37:50,570
the phone line is open if someone would

2206
01:38:01,930 --> 01:37:55,579
like to call in and hang on just a

2207
01:38:02,790 --> 01:38:01,940
second and that number is 603 967 403 oh

2208
01:38:05,070 --> 01:38:02,800
if anyone

2209
01:38:06,930 --> 01:38:05,080
to give us a call here we're trying to

2210
01:38:08,790 --> 01:38:06,940
get our guests back on we have had a

2211
01:38:16,170 --> 01:38:08,800
little bit of trouble as you probably

2212
01:38:18,150 --> 01:38:16,180
heard with the Skype and and so I'm not

2213
01:38:25,950 --> 01:38:18,160
sure exactly what has been going on with

2214
01:38:31,370 --> 01:38:25,960
that see okay I have this phone number

2215
01:38:31,380 --> 01:38:40,629
and I'll try that

2216
01:38:48,950 --> 01:38:45,709
okay all right so the lines open if

2217
01:38:58,660 --> 01:38:48,960
anyone wants to call in and meanwhile I

2218
01:39:02,510 --> 01:38:58,670
will try to get him on the phone so

2219
01:39:04,010 --> 01:39:02,520
again I'll talk about next next week

2220
01:39:06,560 --> 01:39:04,020
we're going to be in studio over in

2221
01:39:11,089 --> 01:39:06,570
Exeter New Hampshire and with Mack

2222
01:39:14,180 --> 01:39:11,099
Maloney and friends and it should be a

2223
01:39:18,140 --> 01:39:14,190
great time we're giving away some giving

2224
01:39:21,410 --> 01:39:18,150
away some books Mac has recently written

2225
01:39:24,470 --> 01:39:21,420
a book and will be given that away seven

2226
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:24,480
of them I believe there are in total and

2227
01:39:28,100 --> 01:39:26,250
I'm gonna try him on his phone and see

2228
01:39:31,640 --> 01:39:28,110
if I can get through that way hello

2229
01:39:33,800 --> 01:39:31,650
there you are hi so we'll go the rest of

2230
01:39:38,120 --> 01:39:33,810
the show on the phone here I'm not sure

2231
01:39:42,229 --> 01:39:38,130
where to what happened but I don't know

2232
01:39:45,109 --> 01:39:42,239
yeah and so we were talking about

2233
01:39:48,290 --> 01:39:45,119
airships and things like that Bailey and

2234
01:39:51,910 --> 01:39:48,300
yeah and yeah so those are those shapes

2235
01:39:57,169 --> 01:39:51,920
yeah so it so it is intriguing to me to

2236
01:40:00,109 --> 01:39:57,179
see how these these these shapes can

2237
01:40:03,050 --> 01:40:00,119
very often link up and connect with you

2238
01:40:05,390 --> 01:40:03,060
know the technologies at the time right

2239
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:05,400
the things that are getting the most

2240
01:40:11,479 --> 01:40:08,400
attention they often sort of had that

2241
01:40:13,459 --> 01:40:11,489
kind of role that they played when you

2242
01:40:18,649 --> 01:40:13,469
look at it sort of a long history of it

2243
01:40:20,689 --> 01:40:18,659
I think also I do I do understand that

2244
01:40:23,419 --> 01:40:20,699
and that is that is really bizarre and

2245
01:40:25,459 --> 01:40:23,429
that that kind of makes you wonder that

2246
01:40:27,410 --> 01:40:25,469
if part of what people are seeing is

2247
01:40:28,850 --> 01:40:27,420
imagination you know I mean without

2248
01:40:32,540 --> 01:40:28,860
where else could you go with something

2249
01:40:33,709 --> 01:40:32,550
like that yeah I mean I think it's

2250
01:40:37,879 --> 01:40:33,719
certainly that's going to be the

2251
01:40:40,339 --> 01:40:37,889
argument of people who are really

2252
01:40:43,250 --> 01:40:40,349
skeptical about claims and witnesses who

2253
01:40:47,209 --> 01:40:43,260
claim to have seen you know ghost

2254
01:40:49,990 --> 01:40:47,219
rockets or flying saucers or things like

2255
01:40:51,979 --> 01:40:50,000
that but you know there the

2256
01:40:54,560 --> 01:40:51,989
counter-argument that you read in the

2257
01:40:57,169 --> 01:40:54,570
UFO literature going back again from

2258
01:40:59,919 --> 01:40:57,179
early times of it was that well but

2259
01:41:03,950 --> 01:40:59,929
maybe this isn't so surprising because

2260
01:41:06,020 --> 01:41:03,960
people will describe things and talk

2261
01:41:08,030 --> 01:41:06,030
about things in the terms that are

2262
01:41:09,350 --> 01:41:08,040
available to them at any given point in

2263
01:41:13,250 --> 01:41:09,360
time right

2264
01:41:15,530 --> 01:41:13,260
so you in fact are going to to see

2265
01:41:19,609 --> 01:41:15,540
things that that look that way

2266
01:41:22,550 --> 01:41:19,619
right so you know you have apparitions

2267
01:41:26,930 --> 01:41:22,560
in the sky you know when when when

2268
01:41:29,899 --> 01:41:26,940
there's a something like an eclipse for

2269
01:41:32,810 --> 01:41:29,909
instance or there's a meteor shower or

2270
01:41:35,629 --> 01:41:32,820
there's some sort of atmospheric

2271
01:41:39,410 --> 01:41:35,639
phenomenon say in the Middle Ages people

2272
01:41:42,709 --> 01:41:39,420
will describe seeing you know a blazing

2273
01:41:45,410 --> 01:41:42,719
cross in the sky and people will say

2274
01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:45,420
that you know maybe the explanation for

2275
01:41:50,209 --> 01:41:47,610
that is is not that necessarily somebody

2276
01:41:52,910 --> 01:41:50,219
people actually saw a cross but rather

2277
01:41:57,470 --> 01:41:52,920
what they're describing is a phenomenon

2278
01:42:00,319 --> 01:41:57,480
that is needs that seems odd seems

2279
01:42:02,270 --> 01:42:00,329
strange and anomalous they need to make

2280
01:42:05,060 --> 01:42:02,280
sense of it and so the best thing that

2281
01:42:08,060 --> 01:42:05,070
they come up with to describe it is a

2282
01:42:10,310 --> 01:42:08,070
cross right it's the same way right with

2283
01:42:13,129 --> 01:42:10,320
Kenneth Arnold I don't everything I've

2284
01:42:15,979 --> 01:42:13,139
ever seen says he never really described

2285
01:42:17,629 --> 01:42:15,989
them as flying saucers but per se right

2286
01:42:19,250 --> 01:42:17,639
he saw them in a very different kind of

2287
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:19,260
shape but you could tell that he's

2288
01:42:25,399 --> 01:42:22,290
having trouble describing what he's seen

2289
01:42:27,770 --> 01:42:25,409
right and so you you seek you try to

2290
01:42:30,020 --> 01:42:27,780
find things to latch on to that'll help

2291
01:42:33,109 --> 01:42:30,030
make sense of it I think that that that

2292
01:42:35,930 --> 01:42:33,119
that was where the the you know history

2293
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:35,940
meets up with experience in a way that's

2294
01:42:40,280 --> 01:42:38,610
often something that somebody themselves

2295
01:42:45,050 --> 01:42:40,290
who's reporting the stuff is unaware of

2296
01:42:47,720 --> 01:42:45,060
right right right yeah yeah I know they

2297
01:42:49,640 --> 01:42:47,730
were it sort of they sort of have like

2298
01:42:52,479 --> 01:42:49,650
wings or something if I remember right

2299
01:42:56,209 --> 01:42:52,489
earth if they sort of yeah unusually

2300
01:42:57,919 --> 01:42:56,219
unusual shape and yeah bat like or

2301
01:43:01,910 --> 01:42:57,929
something yeah yeah that describes it

2302
01:43:03,379 --> 01:43:01,920
pretty well so and that that is it is

2303
01:43:05,870 --> 01:43:03,389
very interesting a lot of people have

2304
01:43:08,010 --> 01:43:05,880
tried to speculate you know why all of a

2305
01:43:11,210 --> 01:43:08,020
sudden all these sightings were happen

2306
01:43:13,290 --> 01:43:11,220
at the time and you know Stan

2307
01:43:14,460 --> 01:43:13,300
Friedman who I brought up on a few times

2308
01:43:17,660 --> 01:43:14,470
on the show so far

2309
01:43:20,910 --> 01:43:17,670
you know his speculation of that is that

2310
01:43:23,670 --> 01:43:20,920
you know the explosion of nuclear

2311
01:43:27,630 --> 01:43:23,680
weapons and you know going back to World

2312
01:43:31,170 --> 01:43:27,640
War 2 and no 1945 and you know the tests

2313
01:43:33,060 --> 01:43:31,180
before that and yeah what does he say

2314
01:43:38,010 --> 01:43:33,070
the kids found the found the mattress

2315
01:43:39,870 --> 01:43:38,020
you know and he thinks oh no because up

2316
01:43:43,470 --> 01:43:39,880
there is it is strange how all of a

2317
01:43:45,960 --> 01:43:43,480
sudden you know starting in 1947 was a

2318
01:43:48,270 --> 01:43:45,970
barrage of sightings and right at one

2319
01:43:51,900 --> 01:43:48,280
right after the other and then you know

2320
01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:51,910
in 1952 is another major year where

2321
01:43:57,450 --> 01:43:56,170
there was so many sightings and yep so

2322
01:43:59,160 --> 01:43:57,460
what do you think about that why there

2323
01:44:05,940 --> 01:43:59,170
were so many sightings bright and red

2324
01:44:08,220 --> 01:44:05,950
with starting at 47 no I I mean I would

2325
01:44:10,830 --> 01:44:08,230
agree I mean the thing the thing would

2326
01:44:14,190 --> 01:44:10,840
would it to some extent would with with

2327
01:44:15,810 --> 01:44:14,200
Sam Friedman saying so what what you

2328
01:44:17,730 --> 01:44:15,820
again when you look at sort of the

2329
01:44:19,590 --> 01:44:17,740
evidence of like the material what

2330
01:44:22,650 --> 01:44:19,600
people were talking about and people

2331
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:22,660
were trying to to make sense of and to

2332
01:44:27,060 --> 01:44:25,210
think about this it's really really kind

2333
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:27,070
of intriguing me and you see this going

2334
01:44:32,580 --> 01:44:30,010
on not just in the United States I've

2335
01:44:34,110 --> 01:44:32,590
written about this kind of as I talked

2336
01:44:36,810 --> 01:44:34,120
about I think earlier about this

2337
01:44:38,460 --> 01:44:36,820
experience in in places like Germany and

2338
01:44:42,500 --> 01:44:38,470
I've seen some stuff about England as

2339
01:44:45,540 --> 01:44:42,510
well what's going on when you look in

2340
01:44:49,950 --> 01:44:45,550
1946 with the ghost rocket scare and

2341
01:44:53,490 --> 01:44:49,960
then 47 in those first few years is a

2342
01:44:57,660 --> 01:44:53,500
really interesting thing is is that

2343
01:44:59,460 --> 01:44:57,670
people are truly truly mystified as to

2344
01:45:01,080 --> 01:44:59,470
what's going on and I don't just mean

2345
01:45:04,140 --> 01:45:01,090
the general public you can see

2346
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:04,150
intelligence agencies are mystified as

2347
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:06,970
to what's going on everybody sort of

2348
01:45:12,360 --> 01:45:09,610
looking at one another saying what what

2349
01:45:15,840 --> 01:45:12,370
is this what's going on and and so you

2350
01:45:17,940 --> 01:45:15,850
see for awhile for several years kind of

2351
01:45:20,730 --> 01:45:17,950
all sorts of theories are being put out

2352
01:45:21,450 --> 01:45:20,740
there to explain it with some people

2353
01:45:23,040 --> 01:45:21,460
saying

2354
01:45:25,110 --> 01:45:23,050
you know what this has got to be the

2355
01:45:26,850 --> 01:45:25,120
Soviets it's got to be the Soviets they

2356
01:45:29,130 --> 01:45:26,860
they got to be experimenting with

2357
01:45:31,620 --> 01:45:29,140
weapons they captured from the Nazis and

2358
01:45:33,540 --> 01:45:31,630
then other people saying no no it's not

2359
01:45:35,460 --> 01:45:33,550
the Soviets they're not doing it it's

2360
01:45:37,350 --> 01:45:35,470
got to be the Americans it's got to be

2361
01:45:39,810 --> 01:45:37,360
the Americans playing with some of their

2362
01:45:41,430 --> 01:45:39,820
new toys that they have come but they

2363
01:45:43,740 --> 01:45:41,440
don't want to admit it and then you see

2364
01:45:46,050 --> 01:45:43,750
if other people say no no no no this is

2365
01:45:48,480 --> 01:45:46,060
just people in a panic right there's

2366
01:45:52,560 --> 01:45:48,490
they're all during World War two there

2367
01:45:55,650 --> 01:45:52,570
were all sorts of bum you know air

2368
01:45:57,660 --> 01:45:55,660
air-raid panics that went on right even

2369
01:46:00,000 --> 01:45:57,670
while people were in fact being bombed

2370
01:46:02,460 --> 01:46:00,010
you could still have moments where just

2371
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:02,470
a rumor would strike panic in a city

2372
01:46:07,740 --> 01:46:04,930
write about the potential for that so

2373
01:46:10,470 --> 01:46:07,750
that what this is is nothing more than a

2374
01:46:13,710 --> 01:46:10,480
kind of mass hysteria and everybody's

2375
01:46:16,830 --> 01:46:13,720
seemed missiles and flying saucers when

2376
01:46:19,500 --> 01:46:16,840
nothing's there um so all sorts of

2377
01:46:21,660 --> 01:46:19,510
things are floating around but what's

2378
01:46:25,140 --> 01:46:21,670
interesting is that when you finally get

2379
01:46:28,260 --> 01:46:25,150
the argument made by Donald Kehoe I mean

2380
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:28,270
he's kind of the key figure in 1949 in

2381
01:46:34,530 --> 01:46:31,690
1950 about this Kehoe's the one who

2382
01:46:38,700 --> 01:46:34,540
really makes this argument the evidence

2383
01:46:40,920 --> 01:46:38,710
shows that the that those people in

2384
01:46:45,750 --> 01:46:40,930
government who believe that these are

2385
01:46:48,510 --> 01:46:45,760
aliens excuse me are in fact convinced

2386
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:48,520
that what's set this in motion and the

2387
01:46:53,610 --> 01:46:51,010
reason they're visiting us now with such

2388
01:46:56,940 --> 01:46:53,620
frequency is because of these nuclear

2389
01:46:59,430 --> 01:46:56,950
explosions right as Friedman says right

2390
01:47:02,730 --> 01:46:59,440
is that it's that they've seen that we

2391
01:47:05,670 --> 01:47:02,740
have atomic technology now and

2392
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:05,680
particularly atomic weapons now so that

2393
01:47:10,290 --> 01:47:08,050
they are now sort of conducting a kind

2394
01:47:13,350 --> 01:47:10,300
of reconnaissance trying to get a better

2395
01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:13,360
sense about who we are and what we're

2396
01:47:17,010 --> 01:47:14,650
capable of

2397
01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:17,020
and whether contact is possible this

2398
01:47:22,260 --> 01:47:19,090
becomes another theory that's thrown

2399
01:47:27,150 --> 01:47:22,270
around so so you really do kind of have

2400
01:47:29,340 --> 01:47:27,160
a whole bunch of people all sort of

2401
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:29,350
coming up with theories they oftentimes

2402
01:47:33,390 --> 01:47:31,690
mutually contradict one another but all

2403
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:33,400
of the theories keep coming back to the

2404
01:47:37,590 --> 01:47:35,290
same theme about

2405
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:37,600
or about particularly the cold war and

2406
01:47:41,730 --> 01:47:39,610
particularly about the potential for a

2407
01:47:43,440 --> 01:47:41,740
sort of nuclear holocaust and that's

2408
01:47:45,630 --> 01:47:43,450
that that's sort of the constant theme

2409
01:47:48,890 --> 01:47:45,640
that you see running through it so a lot

2410
01:47:51,870 --> 01:47:48,900
of I think a lot of the big sightings

2411
01:47:54,540 --> 01:47:51,880
oftentimes come around the time when

2412
01:47:56,910 --> 01:47:54,550
there are particular sort of changes in

2413
01:48:00,480 --> 01:47:56,920
the Cold War right particular moments of

2414
01:48:05,580 --> 01:48:00,490
a lot of heat if you will right and I'm

2415
01:48:08,100 --> 01:48:05,590
sure you've looked into also see the

2416
01:48:11,610 --> 01:48:08,110
connection between nuclear weapons and

2417
01:48:12,690 --> 01:48:11,620
and you know the disarming of them and

2418
01:48:15,330 --> 01:48:12,700
all these different things during

2419
01:48:19,620 --> 01:48:15,340
sightings which is another fascinating

2420
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:19,630
aspect of it yeah I think one of the you

2421
01:48:24,420 --> 01:48:22,690
asked before about about pop culture and

2422
01:48:26,070 --> 01:48:24,430
and you know one of the other things

2423
01:48:28,590 --> 01:48:26,080
I've wondered about I know your thoughts

2424
01:48:31,500 --> 01:48:28,600
are about this I mean there's you know a

2425
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:31,510
very common argument is that you know

2426
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:38,290
when when movies like most owners close

2427
01:48:44,070 --> 01:48:41,050
encounters and et came out you had this

2428
01:48:46,350 --> 01:48:44,080
sort of big uptick of sightings but I've

2429
01:48:48,450 --> 01:48:46,360
read elsewhere from other sources to say

2430
01:48:51,000 --> 01:48:48,460
that didn't happen that in fact it

2431
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:51,010
didn't spark any great that's right big

2432
01:48:56,280 --> 01:48:53,770
uptick and it is that the case is that

2433
01:48:56,940 --> 01:48:56,290
year that's a perfect I think you're

2434
01:49:00,030 --> 01:48:56,950
right

2435
01:49:02,430 --> 01:49:00,040
because that was put out there but it

2436
01:49:05,700 --> 01:49:02,440
was uh it was really just bunk I mean

2437
01:49:07,890 --> 01:49:05,710
there was nothing to back it up as far

2438
01:49:09,690 --> 01:49:07,900
as you know the signs are like MUFON

2439
01:49:12,450 --> 01:49:09,700
does record the amount of sightings and

2440
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:12,460
all that has for many years and there

2441
01:49:18,870 --> 01:49:14,890
was no real spike in that now there may

2442
01:49:21,810 --> 01:49:18,880
have been there there are such cases

2443
01:49:23,790 --> 01:49:21,820
when like hangar 1 came out all of a

2444
01:49:26,460 --> 01:49:23,800
sudden though the sightings were really

2445
01:49:28,980 --> 01:49:26,470
high but a lot of the sightings reported

2446
01:49:31,290 --> 01:49:28,990
were for historical sightings in other

2447
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:31,300
words not ephemeral to the times the

2448
01:49:35,310 --> 01:49:33,010
people would say well you know they're

2449
01:49:37,620 --> 01:49:35,320
watching this on TV never heard of MUFON

2450
01:49:40,320 --> 01:49:37,630
now I'm gonna talk about my sighting ten

2451
01:49:43,350 --> 01:49:40,330
years ago and so they're yeah yeah the

2452
01:49:46,350 --> 01:49:43,360
reports came in like that so yeah

2453
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:46,360
those have an effect on at least people

2454
01:49:51,610 --> 01:49:48,770
you know paying more attention

2455
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:51,620
so yeah I think so I mean we know that

2456
01:49:56,770 --> 01:49:53,570
we know that about the x-files right the

2457
01:49:58,660 --> 01:49:56,780
x-files had a had a definite it was a

2458
01:50:00,010 --> 01:49:58,670
definite impression on people and I

2459
01:50:02,020 --> 01:50:00,020
think the other thing is we know with

2460
01:50:04,810 --> 01:50:02,030
the x-files I think what the x-files did

2461
01:50:07,900 --> 01:50:04,820
that a lot of movies weren't able to do

2462
01:50:09,970 --> 01:50:07,910
because it was it was on for so long it

2463
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:09,980
could follow different kinds of plot it

2464
01:50:18,340 --> 01:50:12,970
really introduced people to a lot of

2465
01:50:20,230 --> 01:50:18,350
those kinds of theories that existed

2466
01:50:22,510 --> 01:50:20,240
back in those days right back in those

2467
01:50:24,460 --> 01:50:22,520
back in the 90s that a lot of people

2468
01:50:28,120 --> 01:50:24,470
were not aware of right would had never

2469
01:50:30,610 --> 01:50:28,130
been exposed to you know these kinds of

2470
01:50:33,160 --> 01:50:30,620
these sort of very very dark right the

2471
01:50:36,070 --> 01:50:33,170
dark sort of dark theories that that I

2472
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:36,080
don't think got much exposure until

2473
01:50:40,180 --> 01:50:38,210
really the x-files sort of brought those

2474
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:40,190
to the front its front and center right

2475
01:50:45,670 --> 01:50:43,130
and to people's attention right right

2476
01:50:47,470 --> 01:50:45,680
so I'm we're gonna leave the number up

2477
01:50:49,150 --> 01:50:47,480
there for just a minute we only have

2478
01:50:51,940 --> 01:50:49,160
well we only have four minutes left to

2479
01:50:53,530 --> 01:50:51,950
show or so yeah so we will take one

2480
01:50:54,910 --> 01:50:53,540
quick call if someone like to call in

2481
01:50:58,120 --> 01:50:54,920
other what otherwise we're not going to

2482
01:51:01,260 --> 01:50:58,130
take any calls for the rest of the show

2483
01:51:04,750 --> 01:51:01,270
the rest of the for a whopping minutes

2484
01:51:07,270 --> 01:51:04,760
so what about you did night we started

2485
01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:07,280
to talk up to talk about are you doing a

2486
01:51:14,110 --> 01:51:11,570
documentary yeah so I've been working on

2487
01:51:16,210 --> 01:51:14,120
this with a with a friend and a

2488
01:51:18,070 --> 01:51:16,220
colleague of mine he's a documentary

2489
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:18,080
filmmaker here at Penn State by the name

2490
01:51:24,130 --> 01:51:22,610
of Richie Sherman and yeah a few years

2491
01:51:26,560 --> 01:51:24,140
ago and I was talking with him about

2492
01:51:29,260 --> 01:51:26,570
this project and he's like you know I'm

2493
01:51:32,170 --> 01:51:29,270
fascinated with this stuff and I've

2494
01:51:35,290 --> 01:51:32,180
always been very interested in it do you

2495
01:51:37,150 --> 01:51:35,300
you know and and as we sort of hung out

2496
01:51:39,220 --> 01:51:37,160
and talked more about it we sort of

2497
01:51:42,010 --> 01:51:39,230
started to explore this idea what if we

2498
01:51:43,300 --> 01:51:42,020
sort of take this this kind of topic and

2499
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:43,310
theme and think about doing a

2500
01:51:49,090 --> 01:51:46,730
documentary on it and so that's what we

2501
01:51:51,490 --> 01:51:49,100
did in fact our first our first sort of

2502
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:51,500
filming we did was at that Congress in

2503
01:51:55,270 --> 01:51:52,730
2016

2504
01:51:57,880 --> 01:51:55,280
Oh in Phoenix and that we just showed up

2505
01:52:00,250 --> 01:51:57,890
I I think the only time only person I

2506
01:52:02,140 --> 01:52:00,260
talked to in advance was probably Ryan

2507
01:52:05,260 --> 01:52:02,150
Ryan Sprague yeah

2508
01:52:07,810 --> 01:52:05,270
and and there were a few other people

2509
01:52:10,240 --> 01:52:07,820
and that but but we just showed up and

2510
01:52:13,750 --> 01:52:10,250
as I said another example where people

2511
01:52:16,090 --> 01:52:13,760
just open up and and are so generous

2512
01:52:19,350 --> 01:52:16,100
with their time you know I showed up I

2513
01:52:22,090 --> 01:52:19,360
just started introducing myself to folks

2514
01:52:24,220 --> 01:52:22,100
asked alejandro if it was okay if we did

2515
01:52:28,210 --> 01:52:24,230
some filming he said absolutely and and

2516
01:52:31,540 --> 01:52:28,220
then just sort of you know started

2517
01:52:34,450 --> 01:52:31,550
talking to people like Sam Friedman and

2518
01:52:37,270 --> 01:52:34,460
Kathleen Martin and people like that and

2519
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:37,280
Brian and and interviewed folks and just

2520
01:52:43,120 --> 01:52:40,970
and and so our approach to this is the

2521
01:52:44,830 --> 01:52:43,130
kind of open-ended we need to be we'll

2522
01:52:48,130 --> 01:52:44,840
be really honest with people we are

2523
01:52:52,600 --> 01:52:48,140
still very much in the sort of what is

2524
01:52:55,750 --> 01:52:52,610
this all add up to phase of things you

2525
01:52:59,710 --> 01:52:55,760
know I've been mostly interested in and

2526
01:53:04,240 --> 01:52:59,720
talking to people about their their

2527
01:53:06,580 --> 01:53:04,250
lives in in and UFOs and and

2528
01:53:09,100 --> 01:53:06,590
particularly people you know like Stan

2529
01:53:12,910 --> 01:53:09,110
Friedman who who got a lot of experience

2530
01:53:14,890 --> 01:53:12,920
have a long track record of involving

2531
01:53:18,220 --> 01:53:14,900
themselves in this stuff so kind of

2532
01:53:20,440 --> 01:53:18,230
asking about how they got involved in

2533
01:53:22,330 --> 01:53:20,450
these things wasn't what led them to it

2534
01:53:24,790 --> 01:53:22,340
how have things changed over the course

2535
01:53:26,440 --> 01:53:24,800
of their lives what are they thinking

2536
01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:26,450
now what do they think the future looks

2537
01:53:32,350 --> 01:53:29,090
like these kinds of questions shouldn't

2538
01:53:34,680 --> 01:53:32,360
get a sense of so in a sense it's got

2539
01:53:38,830 --> 01:53:34,690
its what I guess we'd call oral history

2540
01:53:40,810 --> 01:53:38,840
but you know my friend Richie the

2541
01:53:43,540 --> 01:53:40,820
filmmaker I leave all that stuff up to

2542
01:53:45,940 --> 01:53:43,550
him he's the expert on that

2543
01:53:49,390 --> 01:53:45,950
he keeps saying I want more action we

2544
01:53:53,380 --> 01:53:49,400
need more action he wants he wants to

2545
01:53:56,890 --> 01:53:53,390
see people running around and doing more

2546
01:53:58,720 --> 01:53:56,900
things and his story to me like yeah he

2547
01:54:00,820 --> 01:53:58,730
wants to see something I got I said rich

2548
01:54:03,910 --> 01:54:00,830
we can go we can go on a field

2549
01:54:05,740 --> 01:54:03,920
investigation but all of the people I

2550
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:05,750
talked to who do field investigations

2551
01:54:11,230 --> 01:54:07,850
will tell you right ninety-nine percent

2552
01:54:13,030 --> 01:54:11,240
of them are pretty you know undramatic

2553
01:54:14,650 --> 01:54:13,040
right that's truly they don't tend to

2554
01:54:16,030 --> 01:54:14,660
involve a lot of you know

2555
01:54:17,980 --> 01:54:16,040
damnit let's get in the car

2556
01:54:19,930 --> 01:54:17,990
and get over there right now pronto

2557
01:54:22,210 --> 01:54:19,940
right yeah it's unfortunately there's

2558
01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:22,220
not a lot of great x-file moments right

2559
01:54:27,610 --> 01:54:24,290
that's our a more kind of painstaking

2560
01:54:29,440 --> 01:54:27,620
research yeah yeah where did you we're

2561
01:54:32,410 --> 01:54:29,450
just about we're out of time basically

2562
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:32,420
if you could just tell someone how they

2563
01:54:38,650 --> 01:54:35,690
could find you and your website UFO past

2564
01:54:41,440 --> 01:54:38,660
right calm yeah yeah I have a website

2565
01:54:43,060 --> 01:54:41,450
which I posted sometimes sporadically

2566
01:54:46,600 --> 01:54:43,070
more when I have some more time in the

2567
01:54:51,010 --> 01:54:46,610
semester is it rough a UFO past calm you

2568
01:54:53,470 --> 01:54:51,020
could also check out my site my page on

2569
01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:53,480
the Penn State Department of History and

2570
01:54:58,780 --> 01:54:55,730
you'll see there just lift me up Greg

2571
01:55:00,850 --> 01:54:58,790
Iggy in and I'm always interested in

2572
01:55:05,710 --> 01:55:00,860
hearing anything historical so if people

2573
01:55:08,290 --> 01:55:05,720
have information or had experiences for

2574
01:55:10,960 --> 01:55:08,300
instance with some of the you know more

2575
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:10,970
well-known figures in the history of UFO

2576
01:55:15,010 --> 01:55:13,010
research and particularly those folks

2577
01:55:17,230 --> 01:55:15,020
who are now long gone and we can't speak

2578
01:55:19,210 --> 01:55:17,240
with them anymore I'm always interested

2579
01:55:21,730 --> 01:55:19,220
in hearing stories alright we're out of

2580
01:55:23,290 --> 01:55:21,740
time I'm sorry thanks so much it was it

2581
01:55:27,130 --> 01:55:23,300
was a real pleasure I really appreciate

2582
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:27,140
it thank you all right you okay everyone

2583
01:55:32,290 --> 01:55:29,450
so thanks for thanks for tuning in and

2584
01:55:33,790 --> 01:55:32,300
we'll be back next week we're gonna be

2585
01:55:36,130 --> 01:55:33,800
in studio in Exeter New Hampshire and

2586
01:55:37,750 --> 01:55:36,140
thanks everyone I really appreciate it